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Author Topic: The universe is like a brain  (Read 6928 times)
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kronikel
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« on: October 07, 2013, 03:56:39 AM »

I've always had this feeling that the universe started out much simpler than it is today. Of course physically it was, for example galaxies looked different, but I mean all the way down to fundamental things like the laws of physics or the strength of gravity. Perhaps nature started out with very simple rules and had some fractal way of figuring out what works and doesn't work and began finely tuning things. It's hard for me to imagine something as complex as the universe starting out the way it is now. It's such a great success. It seems like if you changed even subtle things the universe could fall apart.

Here is an interesting article about how the universe is growing similar to a brain. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/27/physicists-universe-giant-brain_n_2196346.html
A brain changes physically as it learns. Could the universe be doing something similar?

I think that this would have some very profound consequences.
As you look back in time, it seems like we always thought we were close to figuring this universe out, but then it turns out a little more complex than we thought. Always appearing to be just out of reach when really we knew so little.
It's as if answers yield questions.
If you assume this is true, it leads to a very important consequence that I absolutely hated at first glance. 

Man has always been trying to find some beautiful theory of everything that could predict the results of any experiment and explain all natural phenomenon. But if what you are trying to explain is dynamic and dependent on what you know, you could be on a wild goose chase. This is something that could be difficult to accept by anyone with a scientific mind. At first glance it makes it sound as if science would have no purpose.
This reminds me of the proposal of irrational numbers. I've read that people would be killed just for saying a number's value is infinite. It's a curve ball that people didn't want to accept.
But a "theory of everything" could very well still exist in such a universe, and science would be useful as ever. What if you could mathematically show that the complexity of reality increases indefinitely? What if seeing the big picture is knowing that the picture frame's bounds are infinite?
We might discover some beautiful way of uniting quantum physics and relativity, but with that new information realize that the grand design is still a step ahead of us. Maybe we just aren't meant to know the answers to everything.

"If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't" - Ian Stewart
Trying to understand the universe could be like trying to understand our brains. It seems to me that it would be a paradox to fully understand your brain, because your brain has become something different every time you know something new. How can one understand that which is doing the understanding? This idea relates directly to us trying to understand the universe.

The article talks about how other systems grow in the same way, such as the internet. What if the internet wanted to understand itself? The more the internet was aware of, the more there would be on the internet.
This also relates to ideas I've heard about how space is finite but unbounded, or some quantum related theories about how things don't yet exist until they are discovered, or that the act of looking for something is what creates something for us to see.
If space and the universe as a whole are "finite but unbounded", would that mean that we always know everything until we question it further, and that the universe is as big as we think it is until we take another step?
Could the highest number ever mentioned in human history be the highest number there is, until we add one more on to it?

I think buried somewhere in here could be an explanation of how we could have free will but be in a universe with exact outcomes for any given situation. It's always been troubling for me to understand if there is free will. It seems like there are two choices. Either the universe allows for randomness and there is free will, or everything is a "set in stone" cause and effect chain reaction. I've always agreed with Einstein's reasoning that "god does not play dice", but equally feel that there is free will. Perhaps a dynamic playing field would allow for something like this.
This idea has always fascinated me and I'd like to see if anyone else has any ideas on this.
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Nahee_Enterprises
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 10:06:38 AM »

To me, this reads more like a philosophical topic, rather than a "Fractals in Nature" topic under "Real World Examples & Fractical Applications".     cheesy
 
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Sockratease
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 12:18:59 PM »

Is understanding the entire thing in every detail actually required to state that we understand something?

Example - Z = Z^2 + C

Nobody will ever be able to describe every point in that set, but we still claim to understand it, right?

Knowing the rules by which the universe operates could well be said to be enough.  Knowing it all is quite probably impossible.

And as for the location of this thread - it could go either way - we have far too many places to post things for a little overlap to be avoided.  I can see why it would belong in either category.

kronikel - would you like this moved to Philosophy?
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eiffie
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 11:56:08 PM »

Yes this should probably be in a philosophy thread so I will throw in some half baked philosophy. I have never had an issue with seeing the brain as a physical machine. I am not a spiritual person, no offense to those that are. I believe free will is just our way of understanding the complicated physical circuitry that goes on before we "decide" yes or no. The best example I remember (and sorry I have forgotten the bbc program) was of people whose two brain halves were separated. When shown pictures of a cat and dog in each eye and asked to draw and describe what they saw they would seamlessly explain why the dog they were drawing looked like a cat. The half describing would instantly fill in the "reasons" for the dog having pointy cat ears as if it had planned to from the beginning. Actually the other half of the brain that saw the cat was doing the drawing. I think all decisions are like that. They originate in our subconscious mechanically and then are given a semblance of meaning after the fact.

It is still important to get out of the way of a speeding bus. It is just nice to know we have a built in mechanism to avoid such dangers. If you've ever shrugged your shoulder when something was coming at your face then you have witnessed it firsthand. Did you really make that decision to protect your neck - or is it built in?
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kronikel
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 12:19:42 AM »

Yes this is probably better suited for philosophy. I was just going to post that link which is why I went into "fractals in nature" but I got a little carried away typing

@Sockratease, yes that is what I'm getting at
@eiffie, that main reason I believe in free will is because I could see it going either way, but having no free will makes my life seem pointless, so I assume the more attractive side
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eiffie
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2013, 05:34:08 PM »

kronikel - can you change the outcome of a movie? Is it pointless to see it? "We are all just actors" works for me but I understand your point of view too. If I were to dwell on it too much it would depress me - so I have gotten comfortable with the illusion of free will.
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kronikel
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2013, 02:25:32 AM »

That sounds like a perfectly acceptable point of view to me also. I suppose it's all just how you see things.
One idea I've thought a lot into is that maybe you have free will if you believe you do. And the same goes for fate.
If you believe that fate has an inescapable path for you then you're right and you end up there.
But if you believe you have control, you get control. It actually makes sense in a real world sense.
But who knows. Just interesting to think about
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eiffie
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2013, 06:13:34 PM »

It definitely works that way in reverse - if you believe you don't have control of something it will most likely be out of your control (unless unconscious control takes over - like breathing). But just believing you can move the sun doesn't mean you can move the sun - EVER! imho

And I think the really interesting question is do you have control over what you believe? Or is it just driven by experience?
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mclarekin
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2013, 03:48:23 AM »


Here is my philosophy of today

For simplicity I avoid thinking about what preceded the big bang or what ever it was that created the current physical rules.

So starting with the actions resulting from the big bang the physical universe obeys rules that in theory can be calculated and predictions made. These actions in the physical universe carry on as per the effect of initial creation UNTIL they come up against actions by sentient beings that can choose actions thru free will. I.e. for 12.6 billions light years a small meteor has been making its way to earth, I see it falling from the sky the size of tennis ball, I have my superhero issue tennis racket and may choose to whack the meteor back into the heavens and change what was  predetermined until the Sentient being chose to interfere at that point in time. Free will was what got me out of bed, decided to wear green socks and have eggs for breakfast before choosing on a whim to grab the tennis racket and go walking looking skywards. I can roll a dice with a different outcome for each face then choose to do all, some or none of them, because my brain has a whim function.

The actions of this sentient being (if I can be so bold to describe myself as one) are made up by what is learnt and what can be deduced from what is learnt (including the effect of delusions.) 


@ Eiffie, this is a short bit of one of the BBC TV BRAIN docs that always amazes me

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/6aJlX0AEWys&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/6aJlX0AEWys&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
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eiffie
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2013, 07:02:33 PM »

That vid reminds me of this...
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/schizoillusion/

Not everyone is so easily fooled by these illusions. (and we call them crazy?!?!)
I think falling for these illusions is an important part of making sense of the world. But for a few people to see through them is also beneficial.
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Chillheimer
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2013, 12:16:39 AM »

I recommend Ray Kurzweil's "The Singularity is near" for everyone who is intersted in theories like this.
If Mr Kurzweil is even close to be right, we're in for a hell of a ride.

(in very short: the development of the universe-->life-->humans-->technology is not linear but exponential. if the curve continues it's rise as in the past, around 2030 a normal pc will have the equivalent power of the human brain. around 2050 the power of all humans on the planet. what this means is hard to grasp but - at least for me - fun and absolutely awesome to live in just that perfect moment in history)

http://www.futurewinners.com/uploads/images/Kurzweil%20exponential%20curve.jpg
http://www.kurzweilai.net/images/image002.png
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2013, 04:53:30 AM »

I try always to not take things as they are black or white, I always consider the shades of grey. Maybe 99% of our decisions are automatized actions derived from the work of our brain activity as a complex machine, but I'll be happy if at least we have that 1% of free will. Also consider that the brain is not like any machine we know, we have theories on how it works, but we are still far away from totally understanding it. Also there's still room for free will when we consider quantum mechanics. We cannot speak of the brain as a deterministic machine, I think. I'm kind of convinced the answer is in the way the subatomic particles behave, and the idea of coexisting multiverses with multiple possibilities.
 
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mclarekin
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2013, 01:56:26 AM »

@ Eiffie, thanks for link, very interesting

I think knowing we are all subject to delusions, to varying extents, is an important part of making sense of the world. But for a few people to see through them is also beneficial.

@ Chillheimer, thanks for link, very interesting, everything really shot off when our sentient nature was able to develop.  "the development of the universe-->life-->humans-->technology is not linear but exponential" is certainly true, with various interlinked factors increasing at different exponential rates (knowledge availability being a big one). And making prediction along these exponential time lines is useful, but on a linear graph the exponential function will approach vertical, that is the further we go into the future the closer we get to all new development happening almost at once, that will be a mind-boggling experience.  cheesy
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mclarekin
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2013, 11:31:23 AM »

Current Theory Of The Day.

Our brains, in tandem with our computing ability, will eventually develope  past the point of discovering the means of making A BIG BANG.

On a whim someone tries it out , then the universe  starts all over again. Quite simple really. grin
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eiffie
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2013, 07:52:53 PM »

I just looked at Chills second image - Epoch 6 Patterns of matter and energy become saturated with intelligent processes. Like the genetic algorithm? Neural Networks? I think the universe had reached that final state without us and we are just catching up.

Still I get what you guys are talking about and these are exciting times where ideas can have instant worldwide impact and what you imagine can become real as fast as the 3d print resin dries but I fear wherever there is an increase in freedom there is an equal and opposite increase in despotism.
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