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Author Topic: Fractalforums.com responding incorrectly to "reply" button on a forum post.  (Read 7945 times)
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Pauldelbrot
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 2592



pderbyshire2
« on: March 31, 2012, 12:38:13 AM »

When "reply" is clicked on this post:

http://www.fractalforums.com/images-showcase-%28rate-my-fractal%29/talispirals/

it requests this URL:

http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?action=post;topic=11283.0;num_replies=0

which results in the following incorrect response, which I'm sure you'll
agree is NOT either the post submission form or the login/register page:

Code:
Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was
unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webadmin@kundenserver.de and
inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have
done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use
an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Why is that thread apparently blocked from receiving new replies? Who made the claimed "error" here? I'm fairly certain I made no error, so it would seem that someone else must have made the error in question. Yet I'm apparently the lucky guy who gets to be punished for that error, in that I am obstructed from participating in a discussion thread apparently because of it. Why is this? And without first being confronted with evidence of the alleged error and given a chance to present a defense, at that. (No wonder the wrong guy got punished if no procedure is in place to make sure the accused actually is guilty first before blocking them in some manner! It doesn't help, either, that the message is extremely vague about the nature of the alleged error. "You did X when you should have done Y" is specific. "You did something wrong so you can't post a reply", which is what the above amounts to, is vague. What did I do wrong? If I don't know how can I avoid doing it again? Of course since all I did was read something, decide I had a comment about it, and click the "reply" link, it seems that I actually didn't do anything wrong and the blame therefore actually lies elsewhere. So someone does something wrong and then someone else both gets the punishment and the too-vague description of the error. The actual guilty party will have no clue that they did anything wrong at all, let alone know exactly what it was, in case it was an accident; and hasn't been deterred in the least, in case it was intentional. Great going. Please fix things so that from now on if someone does something wrong then that exact someone is the one who then experiences negative consequences, such as reduced functionality, such as not being able to post a reply somewhere; and so that the message they get tells them exactly what to avoid doing in the future.)

To top it off, the message says that if I received it in error (which I'm pretty sure I did) to contact a particular email address. Guess what happens if I do?

Code:
Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

     webadmin@kundenserver.de

Technical details of permanent failure:

Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the
recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email
provider for further information about the cause of this error.
The error that the other server returned was:

550 550 unrouteable address (state 14).

So, tried in absentia, convicted of I-still-don't-know-what, sentenced, and then when I show up at the appeals court I find the place boarded up and abandoned. And this is actually entirely typical of pretty much all websites, in my experience, when some automaton such as a spam filter gets set off by some innocuously-intended user input. Franz Kafka would have had a field day with the Internet, had he lived to see it; though particularly with Google's services.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 12:50:59 AM by Pauldelbrot » Logged

Kali
Fractal Supremo
*****
Posts: 1138


« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 12:59:49 AM »

Paul, the server where FF is hosted is experimenting random errors lately, is not a problem related to my post, I also get that error page sometimes when navigating the forum...
Try again a few minutes later and it should work.
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Sockratease
Global Moderator
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 3181



« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 01:00:41 AM »

Internal Server Errors are happening a lot.

You are wrong to assert that anyone made the error.  It's purely due to traffic.  Try again later  (it just worked for me so just give it time).
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 01:02:27 AM by Sockratease » Logged

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Pauldelbrot
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 2592



pderbyshire2
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2012, 02:02:51 AM »

Internal Server Errors are happening a lot.

You are wrong to assert that anyone made the error.

The page says "error". If there's an error, then somebody made it, pretty much by definition.
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Sockratease
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Posts: 3181



« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2012, 02:40:52 AM »

Internal Server Errors are happening a lot.

You are wrong to assert that anyone made the error.  It's purely due to traffic.  Try again later  (it just worked for me so just give it time).
The page says "error". If there's an error, then somebody made it, pretty much by definition.


Wrong again.

It says Internal Server Error.

The server is not a somebody.  It is a machine.  And it experiences errors from increased traffic.  Nobody made any error, we are just growing faster than it can handle.

If you want to help, make a donation rather than trying to blame anybody.
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Pauldelbrot
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 2592



pderbyshire2
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2012, 06:00:06 AM »

Wrong again.

I haven't been wrong at all; sorry.

Quote
It says Internal Server Error.

The server is not a somebody.  It is a machine.

That doesn't magically make it disconnect agency or responsibility. This isn't a tornado or other such force of nature that is under no-one's control when it does something destructive. This is software programmed by a human being to perform specific tasks, precision machinery that is supposed to be utterly predictable and deterministic in how it reacts to inputs, behaving incorrectly in violation of the specification of its desired behavior -- unless, of course, someone instructed it to do what it did.

Then we reach this dilemma:

  • On the one hand, someone may have specifically instructed the server to behave the way it did. This might have been in retaliation for someone doing something wrong -- in which case blaming me was wrong, since I wasn't the wrongdoer. Or it might have been an error to instruct it to do so. In either case, though, someone else did something wrong but I was the one who got smacked for it.
  • On the other hand, the server's behavior could be a bug instead of intended behavior. In that case, again someone (the programmer) did something wrong but I was the one who got smacked for it.

In every case, though, it stands that someone else did something wrong but I got smacked for it.

Quote
And it experiences errors from increased traffic.

If so, then that's a bug. It should perhaps respond more slowly, or maybe even time out, but it should not respond with a page with incorrect HTML contents. If page A is requested, it is permitted to react to load by serving page A slower than normal, or even by failing to respond, but it is not permitted to react by serving page B instead of page A, and yet you are claiming that that is exactly what it did.

In which case someone programmed the server incorrectly. The programmer made a mistake. And, incorrectly, I was the one who experienced the negative consequence of that programmer's error, instead of that programmer being the one that got smacked.

Quote
If you want to help, make a donation rather than trying to blame anybody.

I don't have a credit card. Furthermore, it shouldn't matter who donates how much to what. The server should not substitute page B for page A when page A is requested from it, under any circumstances, and furthermore, a user who had nothing to do with programming the server should not be randomly selected to receive the consequences of the programmer's error. That is where there is misplacement of blame -- when I am stopped from replying to a post not because I did something wrong when attempting to reply but because somebody else (the server programmer) made a typo in their work at some other place and time.
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David Makin
Global Moderator
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 2286



Makin' Magic Fractals
WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2012, 10:43:59 AM »

I haven't been wrong at all; sorry.

That doesn't magically make it disconnect agency or responsibility. This isn't a tornado or other such force of nature that is under no-one's control when it does something destructive. This is software programmed by a human being to perform specific tasks, precision machinery that is supposed to be utterly predictable and deterministic in how it reacts to inputs, behaving incorrectly in violation of the specification of its desired behavior -- unless, of course, someone instructed it to do what it did.

Then we reach this dilemma:

  • On the one hand, someone may have specifically instructed the server to behave the way it did. This might have been in retaliation for someone doing something wrong -- in which case blaming me was wrong, since I wasn't the wrongdoer. Or it might have been an error to instruct it to do so. In either case, though, someone else did something wrong but I was the one who got smacked for it.
  • On the other hand, the server's behavior could be a bug instead of intended behavior. In that case, again someone (the programmer) did something wrong but I was the one who got smacked for it.

In every case, though, it stands that someone else did something wrong but I got smacked for it.

If so, then that's a bug. It should perhaps respond more slowly, or maybe even time out, but it should not respond with a page with incorrect HTML contents. If page A is requested, it is permitted to react to load by serving page A slower than normal, or even by failing to respond, but it is not permitted to react by serving page B instead of page A, and yet you are claiming that that is exactly what it did.

In which case someone programmed the server incorrectly. The programmer made a mistake. And, incorrectly, I was the one who experienced the negative consequence of that programmer's error, instead of that programmer being the one that got smacked.

I don't have a credit card. Furthermore, it shouldn't matter who donates how much to what. The server should not substitute page B for page A when page A is requested from it, under any circumstances, and furthermore, a user who had nothing to do with programming the server should not be randomly selected to receive the consequences of the programmer's error. That is where there is misplacement of blame -- when I am stopped from replying to a post not because I did something wrong when attempting to reply but because somebody else (the server programmer) made a typo in their work at some other place and time.


In this particular case I'm with Socratease - but the error message is worded incorrectly - it should say "Due t the fact that this board is run through limited funds and there are consequently bandwidth restrictions on activity the page you requested is currently unavailable".
i.e. it\s not an error, mistake or malicious design - it's simply an in-built restriction due to economic limitations.

If you want to complain about this sort of problem then the real liars are the ISPs who claim your connection has "unlimited bandwidth" and to the legalities regarding this statement which allow them to make the assertion even when it is a blatant lie (AFAIK there isn't an ISP on the planet with what the average person would expect as unlimited broadband i.e. 24 hours a day at full connection speed).

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The meaning and purpose of life is to give life purpose and meaning.

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blob
Strange Attractor
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Posts: 272



« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2012, 12:54:17 PM »

Take one big chill pill Pauldelbrot and stop constantly complaining and accusing please...  angel
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 12:58:33 PM by blob, Reason: spelling mistake » Logged
cKleinhuis
Administrator
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 7044


formerly known as 'Trifox'


WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2012, 12:57:25 PM »

ok, as i am talking with the admins, the ff server has somehow low config, 40 concurrent threads and 80mb of ram usage is allowed, whenever
the server goes above anything like this, it spits out the "internal server errors"

additionally i tried to install a custom "internal server error" and this is what paul saw, but now it is somehow gone, and i somehow had no idea when the htaccess config was right ...

so, this can happen any time, but it is usually just gone after a few minutes, if it happens that you double post, try to delete it right when you see it ...

next server update is planned, this will double the amount of RAM ( bigger images that can be thumbnailed ), the amount of threads ( more concurrent users ) , and it will feature unlimited webspace ( i still dunno how they will guarantee for this ... but it stands on their website ... ) ... and double the costs...

the date for the update is unsure ....
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Sockratease
Global Moderator
Fractal Senior
******
Posts: 3181



« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2012, 04:10:46 PM »

In every case, though, it stands that someone else did something wrong but I got smacked for it.

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Pauldelbrot
Fractal Senior
******
Posts: 2592



pderbyshire2
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2012, 04:55:37 PM »

80mb of ram

You're joking.

What kind of hardware has that little memory, in this day and age? Let alone that you'd be using as a server.

A machine with several GB of RAM costs maybe $500 ... I'm sure you'd scrape that up in no time with a call for donations. I'd almost be able to supply that whole amount myself -- if I had a credit card. Ten people who do have credit cards chipping in fifty bucks each would be enough to buy a new computer to use as a server with way better specs than what you posted. Heck, $100 or even a few hours dumpster-diving might suffice to scrounge up a used computer with better specs.

Sockratease: I don't get it. If a web server is serving page B, instead of either serving page A or timing out, when asked for a page A that exists on the server, then that web server is behaving incorrectly. Since it's not a random force of nature but a piece of precision engineering, if it is behaving incorrectly then a human being made a mistake somewhere in its engineering. So, the "someone else did something wrong" part of my statement stands. And since I was prevented (at least for a while) from making a legitimate, on-topic post, the "I got smacked" part of my statement stands. Lastly, since the cause of that was the engineering mistake, the "for it" portion stands. So I don't see where you get the notion that my argument is "invalid". It's nearly as ironclad as the argument proving that 2+2=4.
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Archimedes
Forums Newbie
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Posts: 1


« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2012, 04:49:23 AM »

Suicide, the only way out.... wink
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injustpotato
Guest
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2012, 05:26:07 AM »

It says, "Internal Server Error," likely due to high traffic or something that has to do with the server, not an administrator limiting your freedoms, or something like that. In any case,

OP:


Everyone else in this thread:
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Pauldelbrot
Fractal Senior
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Posts: 2592



pderbyshire2
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2012, 06:07:07 AM »

Does not compute.
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lenord
Fractal Bachius
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Posts: 611


No Matter where you go there you are


« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2012, 04:57:31 PM »

Jeezus H. on a Rubber Crutch...ISP's never Lie, Programmers never mangle code and Machines never screw up, get a grip. ISP's always Lie, programmers invariablly screw up and machines are only as reliable as those using them. Whining about Internal Server Errors is like Pissing into the Wind, Always going to be Backlash, just take a breath, backup and do it again, it's better than gettin yer Leg Wet.
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