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Author Topic: I have solved for π this math works, but it isn't penetrating mainstream!  (Read 1569 times)
Description: solution for π
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asimes
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2015, 03:56:39 AM »

Ryan D, I have added this presentation for clarity:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/yL_-1d9OSdk&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/yL_-1d9OSdk&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
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quaz0r
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2015, 05:55:31 AM »

wow those people go absolutely apeshit for that guy  grin
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Sockratease
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2015, 11:00:27 AM »

wow those people go absolutely apeshit for that guy  grin

Agreed.

I think that's enough.  At first this was allowed because no effort to explain himself coherently was forthcoming, but he made an effort  (albeit a failing one, but an effort none the less!), and that must be respected.

Please let's wait and see if anything intelligible comes of this.

If not, please don't let this thread devolve into name-calling and other insults.  I don't want to lock the thread, so let's hope it gets back to some semblance of explaining this so-called 6th grade math!  I am still curious about it, even if very highly skeptical, so let's at least give him a chance to continue trying to put this into intelligible terms.

Thanks.
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3dickulus
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2015, 02:37:13 PM »

interpreting due to language barrier... perhaps 6th Grade == 6th Year University huh?
@kevinmorais if you can post in the board for your language I'm sure the important stuff will propagate smiley
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kram1032
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2015, 03:32:10 PM »

guys, have you even read my post?
This math is indeed really simple. Once you get to logarithms and exponentials, you understand what's happening there.
The problem isn't the math, it's the almost logic-free notation.
The involved math is, in fact, so simple, that I don't see at all how anybody could think that it is revolutionary, let alone giving you the power to "set the atmosphere on fire" or what not.

All this is is one more in a long list of representations of positive integers.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2015, 09:50:34 PM »

guys, have you even read my post?
This math is indeed really simple. Once you get to logarithms and exponentials, you understand what's happening there.
The problem isn't the math, it's the almost logic-free notation.
The involved math is, in fact, so simple, that I don't see at all how anybody could think that it is revolutionary, let alone giving you the power to "set the atmosphere on fire" or what not.

All this is is one more in a long list of representations of positive integers.

Actually, yes.  I read your post, but was no closer to making sense of what was posted.  I didn't get the idea that even you understood how it worked with respect to the notation given. 

I followed what you said, but had great difficulty applying it to the examples given and was totally unable to make any sense of the notation he used!

I really hoped there would be some sort of clarification about just exactly what is being hinted at here, but I somehow doubt we will get that.

Shame.

I wanted to see what the atmosphere would look like on fire   afro
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kram1032
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2015, 12:21:20 AM »

Well, what I got from this was this:
He tried to find a way to represent any positive integer in a wave packet.

Now, the easiest way to represent a number as a wave packet would simply be to go:
0 = 0Hz
1 = 1Hz
2 = 2Hz
...
but he apparently wanted to find a way that is more compact? - His representation allows up to two frequencies to be used. Why? No idea, but that's what he did.

So apparently he worked on an appropriate representation for a whopping 40 years.
What he came up with was, that you could use frequencies of powers of two for this purpose, using the following construction:

0 would simply be 0Hz.
1 would be 1Hz.
2 would be 2Hz.
3 and beyond would be different though:
for n>2 \in \mathbb{N}you'd first half the number (rounding down to a full integer each time) until you reach 1 and count how many steps that took.
This happens to be equal to \left \lceil \log_2 \left( n \right) \right \rceil, if I'm not mistaken. That's the variable s he uses.

With this he finds the two frequencies he chose for his representation: L' = 2^{s-1} Hz and H' = 2 L' = 2^s Hz.

More conventionally you might want to name those f_L and f_H or something.

From here you must construct how often to repeat a wave (e.g. how often to go through 2\pi f) to uniquely represent your given integer.
He uses an additional constraint here: Every integer must be exactly a second long. i.e. precisely a full 1Hz wave must  happen.

So this restricts how many repetitions of the lower- and higher-frequency wave you need. For instance, this restriction automatically means that you can only ever have an even number of repetitions of the higher frequency since else the intervals wouldn't add up to be precisely one second long.

Next, to get to the number of high frequencies necessary, you take the original number n and subtract from it the low frequency L' and, as anticipated to be necessary, you make sure it is even by multiplying that by 2: H=2\left(n-L'\right).
From there you then find the number of repetitions for the low frequency to be your original number minus the just found high frequency repetitions: L=n-H. - This gives rise to a pattern you can see in this notation, namely that the sum of repetitions of the high and low frequency (the numerators of the fractions of his weird fractional notation) is equal to the original integer.

This construction also causes all integer powers of 2 to only feature a single frequency. (i.e. the numerator of the left fraction, which denotes the repetitions of the the lower-frequency wave is 0 for those values, so the lower frequency doesn't actually happen and the corresponding representations coincide with the more straightforward representation given in the beginning.)

Here is his notation and what may be a more usual notation side by side wherever I actually get his notation:

\frac{L`\lambda}{L`f} T`\lambda \frac{H`\lambda}{H`f} \Leftrightarrow \frac{L}{f_L} n \frac{H}{f_H}
T`\lambda=\frac{L`\lambda}{L`f}+ \frac{H`\lambda}{H`f} ... by this he means, that he can write the wave representation of a given number as the lower frequency wave plus/followed by the higher frequency wave.

s`\lambda=\left(T`\lambda=\frac{T`\lambda}{2}\right)\to1\Leftrightarrow "count how often you need to halve T to make it equal to 1. Disregard the digits after the decimal point"
So basically, this is a substitution/iteration. \left(T`\lambda=\frac{T`\lambda}{2}\right) actually doesn't mean "T=\frac{T}{2}", it means "T\to\frac{T}{2}" as in "replace T by \frac{T}{2}".
Meanwhile, the arrow doesnt mean a limit in the usual sense. It's not "This is what this will go against" per se, nor is it "replace the previous expression with the following", both of which would be more usual interpretations for it. No, \to here means "stop once you reach the following".

So something like s: \left(a=b\right)\to c really means
Code:
s=0;
while(a!=c)
     {
      a=b;
      s++;
     }

What I'm not entirely sure about is what the logic behind the varying prime notation (i.e. `\text{vs.} ' would mean.
Since only one of the various symbols even uses ' I'd almost think it's a typo if it didn't consistently happen throughout the entire... err... work.

The various instances of \lambda and f are just what gotta be the most confusing way to denote units as of yet. You can completely ignore them. They literally just mean "this is a wavelength" or "frequency" respectively. Mentally set them to 1.

And as for the "Jewelz-Set" I have a strong hunch that this is basically the same idea iterated upon.

My guess is that this "Jewelz-Set" for 9 would be the following:

9=2_47=2_4\left(6_31\right)=2_4\left(\left(4_32\right)_31\right)
Where now, 9 is represented solely by powers of 2. (I simply iterated the same algorithm for all values that aren't a power of 2. If you continue from here, you'll just end up with the same thing repeated over and over.)

In his own notation this would be something like:

\frac{7}{8}9\frac{2}{16}=\frac{\frac{1}{4}7\frac{6}{8}}{8}9\frac{2}{16}=\frac{\frac{1}{4}7\frac{\frac{2}{4}6\frac{4}{8}}{8}}{8}9\frac{2}{16}

It's basically just confusing and pointless. It does make for some neat fractal patterns of smaller and smaller numbers in more and more towering fractions though, so at least it has that going for it which some may find nice. (As said you could totally continue this ad infinum if you don't stop at powers of 2. You'd just get more of the same powers of 2 and a bunch of 0s though, which doesn't seem particularly useful (even relative to any of this) but it does maximize fractalness.)
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jehovajah
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2015, 01:59:16 AM »

Thanks kram1032.

Kevin clearly is communicating a very personal Insight and has continued here because he feels some here will help him. I think that has proved to be the case and your analysis is something he should take to heart and consider.

Thank you Sockratese for taking the time to moderate fairly but firmly, which again I think Kevin appreciates.

I would reiterate that we are not a bear or troll bating forum. So if you feel someone is Trolling do report it for moderation, and refrain from name calling or ad Hominem attacks. No one has to support or read a thread they disagree with. And if someone is trolling moderators can, have and will deal with it.

As a general rule : it is the responsibility of any inventor or claimant to provide demonstration of their claim. This usually means the claimant must learn the usual conventions or provide access to his or her notation starting with the usual conventions. This is a lot of hard work often for little gain!

However, if the claimant believes he has a benefit to society he will put in that labour for as long as it takes. This is a common characteristic of many men and women we only now recognise as great contributors.

But the harsh reality is that perhaps one in a million of those such " geniuses" will ever get their work recognised, and the benefit translated to society. In that light Kevin, you have to make your own judgement about priorities, and whether or not having a family might not be a better use of some of your time.

For example, Justus Grassmann had an idea, but it was his family that brought it onto the world stage!

In any case, Kevin, if you study how Kram1032 has presented your ideas you may be able to communicate in this fashion to an apprehending audience, learning to use conventions conventionally.!

The cycle of 8 and the periodic table is a natural target for your structure, but chemicals are not numbere or patterns of semicircles. You will need to develop expertise in chemistry, not math to ignite the air beyond the simplest burning match reduction! And that will require you to learn a whole other set of conventions to communicate.
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hermann
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2015, 12:59:36 PM »

A sketch of an idear, what this all may mean?
\pi_0 = 3
\pi_1 = 3.1
\pi_2 = 3.14
\pi_3 = 3.141
\pi_4 = 3.1415
...
\pi = 3.141592...

What happens if we only have \p_n with
e^{2\pi_n\nu} = cos(2\pi_n\nu) + i sin(2\pi_n\nu)
instead of
e^{2\pi\nu} = cos(2\p\nu) + i sin(2\p\nu)

How would a wave then look like?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 01:10:34 PM by hermann » Logged

jehovajah
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« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2015, 10:03:50 AM »

I do not have time to peruse Kevins Work in Detail, so i am pleased that Kram1032 has taken such an interest.

However, to me it is clear that Kevin is modelling matter as waves, as opposed to atoms. This is why he works within a restricted period.

The number representation he has chosen is meant to model the periodic table of elements, as a Menedeleyev or Russellian Pattern. The bold figure is like the atomic number or atomic weight and the figures either side the supposed electron s shell numbers.

All our sciences rely on proportion which is why mathematics is wrongly given such high respect, a respect really due to Geometry or Astrology as devised by the Pythagorean school. These proportions and how he derives them are not new, it is his notation that is novel.

His notation derives from his strong belief in waves as the fundamental materiality, and for him this makes the periodic table a wave pattern diagram.

How useful his notation and method may turn out to be for chemists i do not know, but i imagine that if you replaced the atomic numbers with the element name it may reveal something.

2 things that interest me are:
Does an algorithm eist that does this already making computation of chemical formulae and chemical reactions possible? if so does Kevins notation simplify the algorithm ? or is it in fact more complex and less robust?

 Can a fractal colouring algorithm be developed using Kram1032 analysis of the pattern? That one would be more relevant to members here if it were possible and interesting.
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kram1032
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« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2015, 10:33:13 AM »

Interestingly, due to how pi is defined as the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle, and how, in general relativity, gravity distorts space-time and thus changes the diameter of massive spheres, you actually can, in reality, sort of get different, mass-dependent values \pi_ms. This isn't a hard truth reality though. It's just a chosen interpretation. Still, you could probably do some weird stuff like defining the exponential function or sine and cosine or such in the context of general relativity to use a varying pi. It probably would be overly complex for accomplishing very little as far as actual useful real-world applicable math goes, but it might have some interesting patterns which could potentially be used for pretty pictures.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2015, 11:12:53 AM »

...2 things that interest me are:
Does an algorithm eist that does this already making computation of chemical formulae and chemical reactions possible? if so does Kevins notation simplify the algorithm ? or is it in fact more complex and less robust?

 Can a fractal colouring algorithm be developed using Kram1032 analysis of the pattern? That one would be more relevant to members here if it were possible and interesting.

I can't speak to using this as a coloring algorithm, but it would fall far short of the existing models for predicting chemical reactions.  As a chemist, I can assure you that such predictions are easy but depend little on atomic mass and much more on electronegativity and, yes, geometry of molecules.

In college I wrote a program that takes the output from an Infrared Spectrophotometer and uses it to identify the stuff in the sample (at least narrow it down to just a few possibilities which would also need Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Spectrometer data to draw a firm conclusion - just like in the real world!).

If he wants to use waves to represent atomic numbers, how does this relate to ions and ionic charge, which are the basis of all chemical reactions?  What about isomers?  How could it adapt to the fractional masses used in the periodic table to show average distributions when it seems to only be an integer system?  For that matter, what about partial charges and intermediates formed in reactions?

I have been working in Qualitative Chemistry for so long that my Quantitative is admittedly quite rusty, and my specialized math skills needed to relate this idea to real world situations have not been used in so long I would need a refresher course to go into details, so I refrain from passing any judgement on this notion, but remain intrigued.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 11:46:23 AM by Sockratease, Reason: Clarity » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2015, 11:17:30 AM »

Interestingly, due to how pi is defined as the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle, and how, in general relativity, gravity distorts space-time and thus changes the diameter of massive spheres, you actually can, in reality, sort of get different, mass-dependent values <Quoted Image Removed>s. This isn't a hard truth reality though. It's just a chosen interpretation. Still, you could probably do some weird stuff like defining the exponential function or sine and cosine or such in the context of general relativity to use a varying pi. It probably would be overly complex for accomplishing very little as far as actual useful real-world applicable math goes, but it might have some interesting patterns which could potentially be used for pretty pictures.

Have you heard of the Schwartzchild Proton?

Fascinating theory which posits that the mass of a proton confined in the radius they claim it has obeys the Schwartzchild conditions for it to actually be a black hole!  A very small one, but a black hole none the less.

It turns much of what we know on it's head, so it's not getting the attention I think it deserves.  But it sort of relates to your point about massive spheres distorting space-time.
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