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Author Topic: God and Art  (Read 11007 times)
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panzerboy
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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2014, 02:43:15 AM »

If I may delve into the anthropological...

Humans have wonderful pattern matching brains that perceive the action of intelligence even where none exists.
I have been alone in the forest and heard the wind through the trees speak my name.
Just the over active pattern recognition circuits of my brain I realised immediately.
A less educated person might easily have considered this as the voice of God, more primitive of the spirits of the forest.

It is through this over active pattern matching that we have created Spirits Gods and Religion.

This same pattern matching is why we enjoy art.

We seek the patterns we enjoy.
Many people enjoy the comfort that a deity provides (grandma isn't dead but with Jesus now).
I enjoy the comfort of knowledge.
The universe is a cold uncaring random scattering of distortions in spacetime.
This subset of distortions has some concept of the whole set for the finite time I exist.
And while I'm here I may have added some beauty to the universe.

I am a set of distortions in spacetime thats understands I am an infinitesimally small part of a larger set.
I am the universe that is conscious and self aware.

I suspect the universe is the n-dimensional fractal boundary between zero and infinity.
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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 01:12:21 PM »

God as a supernatural *external* Deity is a a fictional character as real as the tooth fairy or Herman Munster.
If there is something we should define as "God" it is that "God" is the sum of all things and most likely a multi-dimensional fractal which is repeated at all scales from zero to infinity *everywhere* in existence - i.e. this God is within us and without us, present everywhere, all-knowing and all-powerful *but* is not something separate and is only sentient via existences within existence such as ourselves.
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 01:19:50 PM »

Just to add that the usual definition of "Art" necessarily involves an "Artitst" - that artist being *human* not *god* or a bacteria or a dog.

Having said that I do believe that (since I don't believe in a normal Deity) natural things can be *artistic* - they do not become art *until a sentient being* decides they are.
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2014, 01:50:58 AM »

God as a supernatural *external* Deity is a a fictional character as real as the tooth fairy or Herman Munster.
If there is something we should define as "God" it is that "God" is the sum of all things and most likely a multi-dimensional fractal which is repeated at all scales from zero to infinity *everywhere* in existence - i.e. this God is within us and without us, present everywhere, all-knowing and all-powerful *but* is not something separate and is only sentient via existences within existence such as ourselves.


I agree with this sentiment, for the most part.

Sort of...

I have often heard people invoke the sum of all things as a pseudo god, but I thought we already had a word for that - The Universe.

To me, the word "God" carries a totally different connotation than the phrase "The Universe"   blindfold

Take any reference to any God from any monotheistic source and substitute "The Universe" for the word "God" and watch how things don't really change so much as one might think.   Elvis Presley

Has anybody ever read "The Book Of Tao" by Lao Tszu a thousand or so years ago?

My favorite quote from it :

There is something that has existed since long before the birth of the Cosmos, and will continue to exist long after it's demise.

I do not know it's name.

If I must name it, I shall call it Tao


That's almost a god type thing, and about as close as I'll get to the concept.
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2014, 08:18:52 AM »

But you forgot to mention the two most important things about the god/creation/sum of everything:
- it is made of natural causes and has no consciousness. 
- is has no purpose or reason
Because that is what makes it so amazing and beautiful - there is no predefined purpose. It's all up to us to make purposes.
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2014, 01:40:07 PM »

But you forgot to mention the two most important things about the god/creation/sum of everything:
- it is made of natural causes and has no consciousness.  
- is has no purpose or reason
Because that is what makes it so amazing and beautiful - there is no predefined purpose. It's all up to us to make purposes.
That seems true and it's supported by the quantic experiment with the electron, if im not wrong, but you have to answer first if everything is prewritten or not. And how free is our will. And I don't like the concept of life being prewritten but can we talk about real time trips, if it's not?

I believe that if sometime someone could make a real time trip, he would affect complicatedly his life outcome (so the specific's universe's future too), travelling to meet his future self after a t0, but this hypothesis cannot be right reversed. (I)
To decide to travel from today to meet your past self is like jumping on another possibility universe.(II)

In the (I) case, you stay in the same universe, and both today and future self know about this trip. The today guy decided it, the future guy decided it when he was young tongue stuck out so he can remember it .
In the (II) case the past guy should live in a universe with a future guy in it. And the future guy has the knowledge to time travel. So there is possibility to explain his past self. But the trip should start once. And to start it you should have the knowledge once. And that is not now. You don't know how to travel right now, right? Only a future self could do something like that.

So that means that either you jumps to another possibility universe, or when you travel back you don't meet your self, so (II) is wrong.

Imagine someone travelling to the past and telling to himself the way to time travel. tongue stuck out He would live on infinity in a loop if he wanted

So, if these are true, the only universes that can exist, are the ones that someone did time travel to meet himself, after gaining the knowledge to do it. And that seems right to me.

So your can meet only you future self, or else you would already know that you will travel back to meet you. Because you already met you. But can't happen because we are always on a t0 on which we decide to travel back, without already having experienced something like that.

Please tell me if I'm wrong scientifically, these are just thoughts based on the hypothesis of the time travels existence..
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2014, 02:13:17 PM »

If we accept time as an understandable finite dimension, wouldn't that mean that our life spans and/or universe, are finite curvatures of time, or sth like this?

If that's right, could it mean that, trying to adapt the sence of this dimension, we should look at our lifes as predestined or possibly predictable objects on an xyzw axis?

Please infor me if you know what is scientifically believed.
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2014, 02:22:54 PM »

Please tell me if I'm wrong scientifically, these are just thoughts..

Hi Mahmut!
Just thoughts here, too wink

What you are describing is a variation of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox, so you are right.
But time-travel would need information travelling faster than light, and this is not possible as far as we know.

I don't really understand the connection between this and what kalle said.
I believe that it is determined what can possibly happen in the universe, I guess its similar to a http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz-Attraktor - but what actually happens depends on your conscious decisions.
and conscious learning of what happened in the past is key.
because you can use what you learned about the past to predict the future and combine things that have never been combined. (hard to frame that in our language, it's not really suited to talk about things like this..)

it's like the zoom into the m-set.
the m-set exists,the patterns are simply there.
But you need conscious decisions to reveal the patterns. You need to decide "i zoom here" and use our modern technology to calculate/render the result. and that takes energy.
So the consciousness focusses the energy needed to actually form/calculate/reveal the patterns.

The M-Set always was there and always will be, it has no time, it exists in the mathematical realm of probability.
But it has never before been calculated and thus transferred into the 'real' world.

Same with your own zoom path into life.. wink
I believe that every human being (in fact every thing that exists) is the last, actual stage in the now, the current iteration in a looooong line of computation of a formula, endlessly bifurcating, that started out small, but grew more and more complex.


to me, "god" is just another word for the universal fractal that everything is, being a result of the 12 elementary particles interacting through the 4 forces in a recursive "calculation" over time. just like z->z²+c, but with a much more complex base-formula.
and when a formula is recursive, fed back into itself, the result is fractal (or nothing, or fixed - and we are clearly not leaving in a fixed world, or in nothing. so the universe must be fractal)
I believe that the barrier of light speed is the actual speed of the universes "quantum-processor", calculating the fractal formula.
so this is why no information can travel faster..


erm.... I didn't intend to go this far.. but your thoughts made me write down in a few sentences what I have researched and thought up in the last 18 months since my interest in fractals grew exponentially wink

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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2014, 02:38:18 PM »

Hi Chillheimer and thank you for your quick and juicy reply. cheesy
What you are describing is a variation of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_paradox, so you are right.
But time-travel would need information travelling faster than light, and this is not possible as far as we know.
Great, I will check it now. But  what about the loved/ related photons. Don't they prove the existence of, quicker than light, speeds that pass through universe?
I don't really understand the connection between this and what kalle said.
You're right, I wrote a second post while you were writing this which may be more relative. I started thinking and writing and I lost my point at the first post  embarrass
I believe that it is determined what can possibly happen in the universe, I guess its similar to a http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz-Attraktor - but what actually happens depends on your conscious decisions.
I will check that too. I agree that what actually happens is result of living creatures consious decisions. But can't concious decisions be predetermined by little things like our dna and the xyz enviroment we experience based on decisions that were again comlicatedly predetermined by many little factors? Like butterfly effect.. it is too complicated but can be explained if we had the way of calculating it.
and conscious learning of what happened in the past is key.
because you can use what you learned about the past to predict the future and combine things that have never been combined. (hard to frame that in our language, it's not really suited to talk about things like this..)

it's like the zoom into the m-set.
the m-set exists,the patterns are simply there.
But you need conscious decisions to reveal the patterns. You need to decide "i zoom here" and use our modern technology to calculate/render the result.
The M-Set always was there and will be, it has no time, it exists in the mathematical realm of probability.
But it has never before been calculated and thus transferred into the 'real' world.
Same with your own zoom path into life.. wink You are actually the last, actual stage, the current iteration in a looooong line of computation of a formula that started out small, but grew more and more complex.

to me, "god" is just another word for the universal fractal that everything is, being a result of the 12 elementary particles interacting through the 4 forces in a recursive "calculation" over time. just like z->z²+c, but with a much more complex base-formula.
and when a formula is recursive, fed back into itself, the result is fractal (or nothing, or fixed - and we are clearly not leaving in a fixed world, or in nothing. so the universe must be fractal)
I believe that the barrier of light speed is the actual speed of the universes "quantum-processor", calculating the fractal formula.
so this is why no information can travel faster..


erm.... I didn't intend to go this far.. but your thoughts made me write down in a few sentences what I have researched and thought up in the last 18 months since my interest in fractals grew exponentially wink
I agree totally and well written.
So the universe is between 0 and 1 kindof tongue stuck out right?

thank you, I started searching this week and that's bad for my exams.. tongue stuck out
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2014, 02:54:55 PM »

I read now in good greek source, that today teleport is possible (like decoding to quantic beats, give the light information details, recoding the object in a new spot, and the first object in first spot disappears). They teleported an atom but it is really difficult to do it with humans because we have so much information.
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2014, 03:28:04 PM »

I read now in good greek source, that today teleport is possible (like decoding to quantic beats, give the light information details, recoding the object in a new spot, and the first object in first spot disappears). They teleported an atom but it is really difficult to do it with humans because we have so much information.
yes, quantum teleportation is possible (check youtube/wikipedia for anton zeilinger - freaky guy, very interesting)
there is a big BUT, that very often is left out, and makes people dream about teleporting to distant galaxies instantly:

you can teleport, but you need a connection between the 2 places. the fastest possible connection we can do is by light. which is what zeilinger did in his teleportation over 143km from la palma to teneriffa.
but as you see, we still need the laser beam. so to teleport to a galaxy would take millions of years, depending on the distance in lightyears, as the laserlight needs that time to travel.


But  what about the loved/ related photons. Don't they prove the existence of, quicker than light, speeds that pass through universe?
you mean quantum entanglement?
the "problem" here is, that there is no transport of information.
take this analogy:
you have 2 boxes. in box A you put a left shoe, and in the box B the matching right shoe.
now you transport box B one lightyear away.

one observer who only knows there are 2 boxes, with 2 matching shoes of a pair. opens box A.
He sees that there is a left shoe in.
And can conclude that in the other box, there must be the matching right shoe. He seems to have gained information for far away in an instant, not having to wait one year.
but the information never travelled (except, when the box was moved one lightyear away).
so there is no speed faster than light involved.

But can't concious decisions be predetermined by little things like our dna and the xyz enviroment we experience based on decisions that were again comlicatedly predetermined by many little factors? Like butterfly effect.. it is too complicated but can be explained if we had the way of calculating it.I agree totally and well written.
Regarding the butterfly-effect: Yeah, if we had the power to calculate - but there is a natural barrier that you can't pass. If you want an accurate prediction of the weather over 20 days, you would need a grid of measurement-stations every 5mm on the whole planet!
imagine what you would need to predict the weather over a year - we would probably be below the planck-scale. and you would need a computer more powerfull than douglas adams earth wink or even the entire universe itself. I believe that this all is hidden in einsteins E=mc² - that you need infinite energy (or computation power) to calculate that determination. and the limit is the amount of energy in the universe. so there can not be 100% determinism.

and how much more complicated is the human brain, or that little wind that blew my hat of and made me run after it onto the street, getting hit by the car, that my future wife drove, so we met...
and scale that up to all the interaction of all humans in history, the evolution that lead us to where we are..
you would need an entire universe and just as much time as has passed in our real universe, only to simulate what is at the moment unfolding before our eyes.
I wonder, what would be the point? wink
i think the now is determined. the future becomes a fuzzy fog of probability, that consciousness can influence.

as you mention you are studying: these are my personal views and what I've come up with myself, mixing proven science into my own world view. so it is not scientific, not good for studying.
it is just what I think. (but I'm very sure wink

So the universe is between 0 and 1 kindof tongue stuck out right?
I would say that we can perceive the fractal dimension between 3 and 4, were not living only in space and not only in time but in a fractal mixture.
We're surfing the fractal edge between space and time.

But that doesn't mean that 2d or 5d doesn't exist, just that it is not what our senses and brains are finetuned to, and were we are home.
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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2014, 04:36:06 PM »

thank you for the answers you made it clear for me. of course these are philosophical discussions and theories and not prooved scientific facts. Only imagination based on facts and the patterns we know. But I believe that's the best way to drive your researches and experiments. Einstein said imagination is maybe more usefull than logic.
It's good to determine reality both from inside and outside, science - philosophy/cosmology. Unofortunately for me, religion has taken the seat from philosophy/cosmology for many years. I believe esoterism, faith in your self, meditation, searching for the absolute/one/truth/self is good but not as a religion nor have meta-physical value. Maybe something unrevealed scientificaly but not even that nowadays. Science is the tool, the binocular.
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2014, 06:06:05 PM »

If we accept time as an understandable finite dimension, wouldn't that mean that our life spans and/or universe, are finite curvatures of time, or sth like this?

Just a quick question to check. Could you define the begin and end points of these curves? I mean not some vague range or area, but point.

You'd have to jump into things like development of embryos:



And if you already consider this life, then what about the act of fertilization? Those cells are parts of living being already, so you could argue that life just always continues. We don't even know how it started, let alone how it will (if it will) end.

As far as consciousness, free will and related stuff. Thats about as real as the color purple, the A minor chords and things like fun, meaning, systems, health, coziness, the red line in a story, a focus point, etc. Things like this have no weight, no surface, no proof. You could argue their existance (what is this, anyway) in the world, but then you have to make a distinction between the "real" world and the "imaginariy" world. This seems to be nonsense to me, as our imaginations are caused by the interaction of our enviroment with our brain. These both are real, so it's within the scope of the real world. For me, God is as real as dragons, mermaids, blue, anger, feelings and other non-physical (touchable/observable) things.

Oh, and all is one. One big deterministic connected whole, in which everything exists. And since anything (for example a computer or some brain) is within this whole, it would be impossible to store the state of the bigger whole in that subset. When everything is connected, any small change will eventually influence everything else. Therefore you would need to measure and store the state of all subparts, to make a prediction about the next move. Of course, it would be impossible to store the state of the whole in a subset of that same whole. This makes it even impossible to know the current state. And therefore, the illusion of free will is as good as real free will.
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« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2014, 07:32:24 PM »

Just a quick question to check. Could you define the begin and end points of these curves? I mean not some vague range or area, but point.
No, I cannot define any points in reality. Only vaguely. But i can put sth on real x/y/z axis and count it to some detail. have a clue on its 3d.
You'd have to jump into things like development of embryos:

<Quoted Image Removed>

And if you already consider this life, then what about the act of fertilization? Those cells are parts of living being already, so you could argue that life just always continues. We don't even know how it started, let alone how it will (if it will) end.
true, human life itself is a cooperation of many organisms. I believe organism is like the unit of life extend measurment, but I believe life is one. and all organisms cooperaate for a bigger organism which cooperates with others for a bigger...etc (fractaly like our beautiful animals and plants and galaxies and bacterias)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/organism
As far as consciousness, free will and related stuff. Thats about as real as the color purple, the A minor chords and things like fun, meaning, systems, health, coziness, the red line in a story, a focus point, etc. Things like this have no weight, no surface, no proof. You could argue their existance (what is this, anyway) in the world, but then you have to make a distinction between the "real" world and the "imaginariy" world. This seems to be nonsense to me, as our imaginations are caused by the interaction of our enviroment with our brain. These both are real, so it's within the scope of the real world. For me, God is as real as dragons, mermaids, blue, anger, feelings and other non-physical (touchable/observable) things.
I don't believe in God as most religions mean it, but I disagree about the fact that imaginary things have no existance. When we imagine/think something neurons in our brains are created, and other changes happen. There is information through electricity. Chemistry. It can affect you and your environment and change your behaviour specifically. A 3d model as an idea  can be created and depicted digitaly, so it can transfer its meaning, like words, to other consiousness'. If you accept digital products as real measurable things, you have to accept ideal stuff too as reality. they can be translated in binary, on hard disks/ cds, the can be 3dprinted/listened/depicted/sensed even smelled and everyone can sense them and understand their characteristics. It's not the only thing we can measure but can't see straight ahead. Maybe the final experience of each person is different, like in colours, but we all recognize the same thing. I believe thoughts and imagination microexist as long as they have results. There are also theories that the information is all in our head, others say that every info is all over the environment but we can access them (relatad photons) and that brain is like a micrographic model of universe (like pc of brain tongue stuck out), and I believe so. Quantics say that what you observe, changes universe at least microphysically, and we know is thinking is before creating (your future). I believe there is no me and you, at least here in reality, but it's all one, and all together one, and all together one etc.. and we could access it fully but we don't know how. Like the matrix spoon kid said: "There is no spoon" Ideas are like the prototype info of future reality, or real things/ situations, like dna to animals, and they micro exist, but we have to decode them.
Oh, and all is one. One big deterministic connected whole, in which everything exists. And since anything (for example a computer or some brain) is within this whole, it would be impossible to store the state of the bigger whole in that subset. When everything is connected, any small change will eventually influence everything else. Therefore you would need to measure and store the state of all subparts, to make a prediction about the next move. Of course, it would be impossible to store the state of the whole in a subset of that same whole. This makes it even impossible to know the current state. And therefore, the illusion of free will is as good as real free will.
hehe maybe god is this whole 100% deterministic 100% self concious hyperorganism we call universe tongue stuck out that it self is the measurment of it self 8O i go to sleep
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« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2014, 08:04:17 PM »

it's like the zoom into the m-set.
the m-set exists,the patterns are simply there.
But you need conscious decisions to reveal the patterns. You need to decide "i zoom here" and use our modern technology to calculate/render the result. and that takes energy.
So the consciousness focusses the energy needed to actually form/calculate/reveal the patterns.

The M-Set always was there and always will be, it has no time, it exists in the mathematical realm of probability.
But it has never before been calculated and thus transferred into the 'real' world.

Same with your own zoom path into life.. wink
I believe that every human being (in fact every thing that exists) is the last, actual stage in the now, the current iteration in a looooong line of computation of a formula, endlessly bifurcating, that started out small, but grew more and more complex.


to me, "god" is just another word for the universal fractal that everything is, being a result of the 12 elementary particles interacting through the 4 forces in a recursive "calculation" over time. just like z->z²+c, but with a much more complex base-formula.
and when a formula is recursive, fed back into itself, the result is fractal (or nothing, or fixed - and we are clearly not leaving in a fixed world, or in nothing. so the universe must be fractal)
I believe that the barrier of light speed is the actual speed of the universes "quantum-processor", calculating the fractal formula.
so this is why no information can travel faster..
Wow, you just put the right words on thoughts I also have had!
Excellent! Thanks a lot!
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