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Author Topic: God and Art  (Read 11005 times)
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David Makin
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 09:04:34 PM »

AS you seem to have a problem with God´s existence, let me state this, This Universe has levels.
And this means there is above and below.
From any viewpoint, we aren´t the end of nothing, above our heads a full Universe dwells as well as under our feets, and this all is One. God.
Take a romanescu, it´s so clear ! The whole thing is the Unit, the One, God, but is built trough countless iterations of himself, wich can´t exist out of the Unit, and this Unit can exist only trough those countless iterations.
 Well, name it as you want, but this Unit, this One, exists and we live inside it, and we live below at least related to the existing above, so men of all cultures have recognized this One and named it with a lot of names.

I don't know about Sockratease but I have no issue with that - "God" as the "sum of all things" works for me - but if that's true you've got to also accept that the fundamental nature of this "God" isn't in any way related to the separate untouchable infallible *invented* non-existent Deities that organised religions believe in.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2014, 11:33:33 AM »

I don't know about Sockratease but I have no issue with that - "God" as the "sum of all things" works for me - but if that's true you've got to also accept that the fundamental nature of this "God" isn't in any way related to the separate untouchable infallible *invented* non-existent Deities that organised religions believe in.


I have no issue with god, or people believing in it's existence.

I DO have a problem with invoking it for a definition of something so totally unrelated to religion and as a definition which all people are expected to agree with as being valid.

I also have issues with people who demand evidence of something then choose to dismiss that evidence when presented with it, even under the guise of "keeping the peace" - Doubly so after being so arrogant about their certainty that such things cannot possibly exist.

Attitudes like that are my main problem with religion and god.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:47:34 AM by Sockratease, Reason: Speelinf Eroorz » Logged

Life is complex - It has real and imaginary components.

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youhn
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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 07:21:16 PM »

A storyteller sees the world as the biggest story ever
Just as a singer hears it as a song
Painters see the clouds as divine artwork
While the programmer see some matrix
Engineers look at the universe as mechanism
Drivers would say God is behind the wheel
Farmers use to see him as The Lord
Kings and priest think of God as the Biggest Authority
Philosophers and theologists call him All That Is
I haven't really made up my mind,
to really define who or what I am,
maybe just a
nobody.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2014, 10:26:31 PM »

A storyteller sees the world as the biggest story ever
Just as a singer hears it as a song
Painters see the clouds as divine artwork
While the programmer see some matrix
Engineers look at the universe as mechanism
Drivers would say God is behind the wheel
Farmers use to see him as The Lord
Kings and priest think of God as the Biggest Authority
Philosophers and theologists call him All That Is
I haven't really made up my mind,
to really define who or what I am,
maybe just a
nobody.

Three engineering students were gathered together discussing the possible designers of the human body.

One said, It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints.

Another said, No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of  electrical connections.

The last said, Actually it was a civil engineer. Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area?
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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2014, 11:07:42 PM »

God is the biggest self-reference joke, without being consious about it.  fiery
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stereoman
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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 11:29:57 PM »

I don't know about Sockratease but I have no issue with that - "God" as the "sum of all things" works for me - but if that's true you've got to also accept that the fundamental nature of this "God" isn't in any way related to the separate untouchable infallible *invented* non-existent Deities that organised religions believe in.

  I talk from a geometric viewpoint.
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stereoman
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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2014, 11:43:02 PM »

     I will try to explain me, I don´t ask for impressive credentials, I want to point out the capital importance of drawing for mankind.
     without it, we had not a civilization, that´s all.
     Because  almost all perceptions reach us trough the eye.
     Then, drawing is the human tool that help us to discriminate, to understand, remember how scientific expeditions always supplied great amounts of drawings taken from life. and these were true treasures, pure gold for some.
      drawing, scientifically, originates Geometry, and trough it, Architecture, Optics, Astronomy, and all sciences.
      This Universe is an artwork, and art is the way to approach it, I´m sorry for those who lose it´s temper  so easily, but art is too a big thing .
      Art knows how to deal with octaves and vibrations, and octaves and vibrations are the core of this world.
      Vibrations are the basis of this Kosmos, and tonal scales are the tools mankind has always used to deal with, both, in music and in painting, tonal scales are the true tools of artists.
        What I want is to show to any person that has tried to draw, is that this is  really important, this is the basis of humankind as we understand it, our lifestyles are due to human ability to draw, our discoveries, our dreams, have been drawn in a moment or another before taking shape.
         I´m not talking about "artistic" things, but about "TRUE" things.
          By the way, nobody is in need to feel any offense , I say what I see, and try not to get personal.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:06:25 AM by stereoman » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2014, 12:15:42 AM »

I have no issue with god, or people believing in it's existence.

I DO have a problem with invoking it for a definition of something so totally unrelated to religion and as a definition which all people are expected to agree with as being valid.

I also have issues with people who demand evidence of something then choose to dismiss that evidence when presented with it, even under the guise of "keeping the peace" - Doubly so after being so arrogant about their certainty that such things cannot possibly exist.

Attitudes like that are my main problem with religion and god.



Well, three names  against thousands does not seems a great evidence to me, I´m sorry.
The fact you can´t connect Art with God is not a reason to dismiss anything, maybe others can, in fact, many many other have done it along millenniums and then you should dismiss as non artistic the whole artistic production of all our history.
Finally, I ´m not talkin religion, but Art, too bad if God is the Greatest of Artists, these aren´t my words, but the words of countless humans before me.( Einstein stated that "God makes Geometry" , I seem to recall he also stated " I can´t understand it if I can´t draw it")

But I asked you some real questions that I really hope you answer.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 01:58:27 AM by stereoman » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2014, 12:43:26 AM »

I'd move to close this thread as its simply being driven by a provocateur...
its aimless, pointless, and without merit


Then talking about the  origin of inspiration in an art discussion is something pointless for you?
I don´t like your mood, maybe better look for more serious people.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 02:37:44 AM by stereoman » Logged
Ryan D
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« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2014, 06:48:41 AM »

Einstein stated that "God makes Geometry"
For Einstein, "God" is what the rest of us called "nature".  Here's what he thought about what the rest of us call "God".
Quote
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Ryan


* Mark Twain.jpg (20.76 KB, 600x304 - viewed 525 times.)
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2014, 11:13:59 AM »

IMHO I have the answer to it all.
If a termite stack is not art because it was built by animals following their inherited instincts.
And if bird singing is not art either, just inherited instincts.

Then the pyramids and cathedrals and perturbation on 32 core computers is not art either, because we are also only following our inherited instincts of being curios and try new solutions.
The consciousness and free will are just illusions, we are just rule following robots like ants or bacteria, just a bit more complex. And no rule based robots can stand above it self and see through its own rule based behavior.
We are simply having too greats thought about our selfs as humans.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2014, 11:25:55 AM »

I have no issue with god, or people believing in it's existence.

I DO have a problem with invoking it for a definition of something so totally unrelated to religion and as a definition which all people are expected to agree with as being valid.

I also have issues with people who demand evidence of something then choose to dismiss that evidence when presented with it, even under the guise of "keeping the peace" - Doubly so after being so arrogant about their certainty that such things cannot possibly exist.

Attitudes like that are my main problem with religion and god.


Well, three names  against thousands does not seems a great evidence to me, I´m sorry.
The fact you can´t connect Art with God is not a reason to dismiss anything, maybe others can, in fact, many many other have done it along millenniums and then you should dismiss as non artistic the whole artistic production of all our history.
Finally, I ´m not talkin religion, but Art, too bad if God is the Greatest of Artists, these aren´t my words, but the words of countless humans before me.( Einstein stated that "God makes Geometry" , I seem to recall he also stated " I can´t understand it if I can´t draw it")

But I asked you some real questions that I really hope you answer.

You say three names  against thousands does not seems a great evidence to you?

Well, given the Absolute nature of your Certainty that Absolutely NOBODY can be a True Scientist without god, then ONE is more than enough to 100% debunk your baseless assertion and render it Proven Wrong.

That's the problem with such grand sweeping statements.  It only takes One Exception to prove it wrong.

I gave you 3 off the top of my head, with zero research.

Can you Truly name Thousands? 

I suspect not. 

Just as I can not name all of the Millions of True Scientists who are Atheist.

But if you need more, a quick internet search found this list - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_%28science_and_technology%29

Is that enough?

And by the way, that list confirmed my tentative example of Peter Higgs.

I can not carry on a discussion with anybody who makes up a new definition of god  (to use as part of a new definition of Art)  and then takes the new definition and applies it to people's quotes who never intended it to be taken in that context. 

So until we can agree upon what we are talking about, there is no point in discussing anything with you.

And insisting that ability to draw is a pre-requisite to understanding Art, you never met the Curator of The Philadelphia Museum Of Art.  She can't draw or paint, but has a Doctorate in Art History and is more qualified than either of us to discuss Art.

You say you asked some questions for which you want answers?  One thing at a time.  Let's see if you can first admit that god is NOT a Necessity to understand and be allowed to discuss Art  (or to be a True Artist / Scientist) before we even think about any of your other questions.

It may help you and one or two others, but it is by no means a requirement.
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2014, 06:17:53 PM »

My God
My God disregards any human qualification
He whisper the Thruth to me at night
Since we have a good and close relation
And together we are always right

He is the reason for all that is and will be
His thoughts cause the universe to move
Including science, art, you and me
Even if everyone would disapprove

No matter what evidence you bring
My God will always pull me straight
Whatever confusing words you sing
He removes all doubt, restores the faith

So you will understand and see
There is no option to disagree
Until you admit your fraud
And commit to God!

My God
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Sockratease
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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2014, 10:37:15 PM »

My God
My God disregards any human qualification
He whisper the Thruth to me at night
Since we have a good and close relation
And together we are always right

He is the reason for all that is and will be
His thoughts cause the universe to move
Including science, art, you and me
Even if everyone would disapprove

No matter what evidence you bring
My God will always pull me straight
Whatever confusing words you sing
He removes all doubt, restores the faith

So you will understand and see
There is no option to disagree
Until you admit your fraud
And commit to God!

My God

If it weren't for the last verse, that poem could be a great and respectable way of expressing faith.

As it is, it tries to force belief on others and therefore is ...  not.

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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2014, 11:07:26 PM »

Some provoking facts to the religios:
- if god knows everything he also already know his own future descisions. Then he does not have a free will.
- if god doesn't know everything, sometimes he will make wrong descisions, he will make mistakes.
- that god created everything doesn't answer any of our questions, it only rises new ones.
- the world is way more wonderful and fantastic because it was made of a random unconscious coincident, rather than if it was created by some superior being. (But that is of course only my opinion)

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