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Author Topic: Fractal Foundations of mathematics: Axioms notions and the set FS as a model  (Read 145009 times)
Description: All ideas welcome.Needed to revise mathematical thinking and exploration
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jehovajah
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« Reply #255 on: November 18, 2010, 06:47:21 AM »

It is rather beautiful to me that i have these thoughts pass through me , hurrying on their way to some genius who will fully decant them like some special wine. i have not the "time" to write of the rather wonderful things that come to me, like the conversation about the probability measure that lies within the Lasgrangian exposition, or the fundamental difference that degrees of freedom make to an exploration of notFS without the hindrance of so called dimensionality, all conversed as if Richard Feynman had taken upon himself to share his thoughts in his inimical and charismatic way.

The notion that the motion field is  a discontinuous function with outputs from minus to plus infinity, but including 0 which being an improbable case has a region of applicability, outside of which the probability increases but discontinuosly,

the rather wonderful notion that the trochoids are a fundamental group of functions which could be substituted into a Fourrier equation describing systems, or that a quaternion with all its coefficients being trochoids would produce a rather beautiful description of so called chaos and randomness, or that the general trochoid is not that of circles but rather those of irregular spirals...
or that the notion of god has a very low probability,but the existence of an absolute gud remains a possibility! You see nothing can be ruled out because we cannot rule everything in..

To see and hear these things as if in some deep absorbing conversation is truely wonderful, hopeful, and inspiring, because i am glad that i am not some deterministic computational machine with randomness slowly being squeezed out as we find out more and more, but rather a trochoidal maniac, spiralling interestingly throughout space out of control, but seemingly able to mitigate that sufficiently to Enjoy being alive!
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
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« Reply #256 on: November 18, 2010, 09:26:37 AM »

Any dynamical system based on 3d trochoids of a circle are amazing, beautiful and moving, but they do not gow or collapse, they oscillate. For this reason i feel that the more general trochoid needs to be explored. In this case a dynamical system will have the possibility of infinite growth or infinite collapse, with a small region of oscillatory like stability.

However at this stage 3d trochoids of the circle with variable radii are good enough tu have a look.
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« Reply #257 on: November 19, 2010, 04:30:03 AM »

What distinguishes animates? Certain unique abilities or forms. But in what way are they unique: binary,or discontinuous but ordered ranking, or continuous scaling of similarity?

So binary, either it is different or it is the same eg does any other animal cook by controlling fire?
Now discontinuous but ranked, it is different by some measure or value that compares against a list or sequence of important values. Things re ranked according to the list, eg do other animates utilise fire?

Finally a continuous scaling o similarity, every thing thst is similar is distinguished by another measure that is scale which has a continuous property, which means i can find a scale value for every distinction i want to make eg do other animates utilise temperature variation?

So from that while warming my tea in the microwave it struck me how that act right there demonstrated that heat was the rapid movement of atoms relative to there molecular and aggregate bindings.

So as some put it the kinetic motion of molecules and atom is heat. Feynman described it as "wobbling". But of course we know that "particles" are regions of space that have spin, therefore it is not unreasonable to expect this wobbling to be trochoidal, and not harmonic oscillation.

The difference this makes is that at certain levels of heating the regions would break apart impulsively rather than elastically as one would expect from a smooth curve oscillation like a sine wave. In phase diagrams this would be saying that a solid could turn straight to a gas if trochoidal wobbles of the extreme kind dominate, and to liquid if sine like trochoids dominate.
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« Reply #258 on: November 19, 2010, 10:13:59 AM »

Loxodromes are also curves on the surface of an object, usually a sphere but also on a cone where they take on the name vortex or conical helix more readily. So one way of thinking about the Trochoids of a vortex is to think about the trochoids of a loxodrome.

Loxodromes form a nested sequence of curves as one moves toward the centre of a sphere along  a radial that intersects a loxodrome. Imagine as the sphere roles along the path of a loxodrome how the trochoids form a nested set of twisting curves at an oblate angle kind of tracing out a 3d set of twisting cycloids,sinusoids and helixes.

The thing about a cone is that it always rolls around in a circle if it rolls on it conical face, thus the trochoids have one easy order but the loxodromic trochoids spiral in or out depending on the surface spiral(loxodrome). This kind of dynamic system is used everyday by British Rail in its wheel bogeys. Feynman relates an interesting tale on how this was an entrance question to joining the fraternity of physicists at his college.

Now on the subject of vortex rings. I guess it has not escaped attention that a stable vortex ring is an ideal candidate for the science fiction idea of "force" fields. If we could generate them in a descending cone of expanding vortex rings each stable ring on top of another spinning anti to it, it may make a viable mosquito net? wink
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
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« Reply #259 on: November 19, 2010, 10:50:19 AM »

Another fun place to play.
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jehovajah
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« Reply #260 on: November 19, 2010, 11:52:34 AM »

Many of us work on the premise that if something is old and venerated it is profound. But here ps a conjugate idea, because it is profound it is new and up to date.

Grammar of course has a mathematical structure. Before i found the Logos Response i did think that maths derived from Language in this way,giving structure, syntax, order and parsing to it through the notation and algebraic rules for their use. Now i think they are in act aspects of the same thing. Therefore if an expression has a conjugate in a algebraic form there ought to be conjugate to language forms. 
 Thus x+y has a conjugate x-y, therefore subject + predicate should have a conjugate subject - predicate. So what might this  - predicate mean?
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jehovajah
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« Reply #261 on: November 19, 2010, 12:44:43 PM »

There is a big fault that primary teachers have fallen into with fractions i think. Hardly anyone understands proportions and proportioning as a reasoning structure for exploring geometry. Insteradof its preeminent place it is reduced to skulking in the backwaters of historical development of fractions. The Lesser has replaced the greater i am afraid, seriously damaging our engagement with mathematics. The moan that usually accompanies the mention of fractions is not to be taken lightly, for at that time millions of children's hopes of enjoying what up until then had been a wonderful subject are dashed beyond salvation it seems.
If there is one subject that can usefully be left to Advanced level it is Fractions, and then as a historical footnote in the development of the numberline concept.

It should be replaced with proportion and proportioning, thus allowing a creative mix of mathematics art and music and dance to be brought together into the maths curriculum. From this we may derive future Albrecht Duerers or even Da Vinci's, and make sense of the spaciometry of our world in all faculties of understanding.
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« Reply #262 on: November 20, 2010, 11:50:46 AM »

Ladies and gentlemen....Sir William .. Rowan...Hamilton!  Applause please!

So i awoke wondering why my education in vectors had been soooo lamentable?,Why Cartesian coordinates had so constrained the field of mathematics? Why Descartes had had such an influence on mathematics and science through it, after all it is really a simple reference frame, aand when he introduced it nobody was that bothered.

It slowly dawned that it was the personalities, the camps, the warring groups in the grand game, the nationalities: that in mathematics there was as Hamilton puts it a "mathesis" a way of doing mathematics that was doctrinaire nationalistic, patristic and encrusted with anachronism and tradition.

Because of this english maths suffered a loss for over a century due to the Leibniz Newton farago, important insights were overlooked in the case of Grassman because they were not part of the old boy network, and they discouraged outsiders..didah didah didah... Nothing new then.

Rodrigues and grassman what they would have given to have ccess to the web!

Hamilton is a great Irish figure in distinction to the italian, german and general European figures in our part of the history of maths. Because of the web mathematicians of all ages and abilities can get together and critique create and contribute without the old guard control!

So this new frontier in mathematics won't lead to chaos...because wikipedia has shown that effective democratic controls can be put in place, and minority or special interests can set up their own group, without the need for this centuries long hostility and browbeating.

I know that evolution means it is inevitably going to be involved somewhere along the line,but we invented gods to control this sort of thing, so we should use them!

So Hamilton almost singled out the area of Algebra as the new Messiah for mathematics and the sciences due to the success that had flowed from it due to Bombelli, Cardano,Euler Napier,Gauss, Riemann,Newton,Laagrange and Laplace,, on and on as the simple cartesian coordinate mathesis, method tied together all those in the game of maths,both assisting and frustrating mathematicians in what they wanted to think about, to measure and to manipulate.

Even today the myth of number is used to convey concepts that are not related except algebraically. The emergence of a dynamic applied geometry was masked by a clinging to the number mathesis,myth and method. It is amazing to look back and see how mathematicians and physicists struggled to establish a proportinate measure concept of space, whichGreek and earlier mathematicians had in their geometries, and which was common up to the time of cartesian coordinates and beyond. 

Newton did not have to have a vector algebra to deal with vector quantities, or dynamic situations, but he did have to invent a new mathesis for dealing with dynamic situations geometrically. It was based on Descartes, but dynamic not static, that is why he called it fluxions.

Didn't he half get into trouble for it! Berkely Lambasted him later. Fortunately for the shy,autistic Newton he was in a respected position because he was right and bright, and the plague had killed off a lot of other contenders! Still he delayed publishing until asked to by Hooke, because of the criticism and prsonal attack he would be subject to.

In those days it was no joke to be besmirched as Galois indicates. You defended your honour with your life! No reason to disturb the frogs and toads  then, by troubling the waters unecessarily!

Descartes methods included small differences called differentails later. Newton studied these extensively and through them and compound interest formulae found the binomial series. With this and the fact that differentials were used to algebraically study tangents through Proportions he was able to develop fluxions as a way of compounding tangents to give a curve solution to a dynamic system.

A differential is thus a "compounding sum" of tangential proportions and gives a curve. But along with tangents areas under curves were being studied again by small differences related to tangents. The small differences of these areas under the tangents could be Aggregated directly and they became integrals and were seen as and shown to be the inverse of the mathesis or method of "tangeation".

The difference between compounding and aggreation was not thought that significant, and yet it is  a systematic use of vector addition using the parallelogram rule. It was probably hidden by the infinitesimal numbers or fluxions as Newton called them! These were everywhere evident to Newton because he had developed the binomial series and could see them vanishing away in the limit in the series! But what is overlooked is Newton also regarded them as the result of the parallelogram rule, without which he would have quantities but no direction. Newton needed both quantity or magnitude as they distinguished it then,and direction to trace a curve path by tangential envelope.

So by fusing cartesian coordinat geometry and euclidean geometry with algebra of proportions Newton created fluxions for dynamic systems.Leibniz came to it later but for geometrical purposes and without the binomial series which he did learn from Newton.however he did publish both in differential tangential calculus and integral tangential calculus before Newton, giving no reference to their correspondence or collaboration. That was the basis of the dispute.

So sir William Hamilton was not in a glass bottle when he did his maths degree, and he read and corresponded widely.Whether Grassman and Rodrigues were known to him is  question, but in ant case no one claims that he stole their ideas, rather that all mathematicians were looking at how to tackle 3d dynamics. Newton for all his brilliance was constrained to 2d by rhe mathematics of his time, and in any case geometry dealt perfectly well with 3d.

So between Newton and Hamilton a generation of mathematicians enamoured with a more symbolic approach as opposed to a geometric one grew up almost disdaining geometry for its lack of algebraic rigour!

Hamilton puts it succintly, they sought a deeper truth than apparently plane and solid geometry could give, there being no advance in it for thousands of years! Plus no one could make their mark in geometry, that belonged to Euclid! Riemann was giving it a good go though.

It is very simple: Bombeeli showed that there was an algebra that was prior to arithmetic, something that had not been realised until he stated it in his treatise. In addition he had shown that it made sense of the "mene" the √-n . Because of him polynomials were generalised and gauss proved a general theorem using these "imaginaries " as Descartes called them. The imaginaries lead to an explosion in the interest and development and applicability of algebra, in which fiels Hamilton was greatly interested,especially as it applied to geometry and space. Because of their notation and their history Hamilton saw the calculus and the differential geometries as a powerful algebra applying to the real world the secret of imaginaries! But coordinates mucked things up!

Much as Cartesian coordinates werethe greatest unifying simplistic idea, they also constrained the imagination and thinking.

Hamilton studied optics because he hoped to understand how rays (or vectors) behaved in the world. Once he had done that he had the technical framework to be able to dismantle cartesian coordinates. Maybe he studies Moebius as well as Malus,but regardless he had a geometricl structure linked algebraically to positions and directions in space. from this he sought a deeper connection with the imaginaries which are involved with rotation and therefore reflection equivalents.

Hamilton's theory on the Algebraic Couples prepared him to be able to do his task. It is to be noted that Hamilton was in a club of Algebraists who were linked to the sciences, along with his friend Graves.

That the imaginaries inspired algebraist is seen in Hamiltons reference tot the doctrine(mathesis) of imaginaries and graves seminal but rejected work.

So i woke to find that these things called vectors by hamilton, both the line and the coordinate system were conceived by him to promote the extraordinary efficacy of Algebra as a valid and useful part of mathematics over arithmetic, and a a gateway into a deeper understanding of the world around us.

Hamilton's dream has been realised but we are not party to it because some have made it their aim to promote themselves,and to keep us in the dark. Would that we all could see Hamilton's rays of light, and his notion of the vector as unencumberd by coorfinates,freeing the geometry to speak to us of the best form to represent it in.

And now we have computers we can perform vectors as naturally as putting knect pieces, or Zome parts together.
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
jehovajah
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« Reply #263 on: November 20, 2010, 10:16:01 PM »

For me the natural matrix for mathematiccs is geometry. Everything proper and useful springs from geometry, within geometry is motion form, surface relationship, size of all sorts : tensors ,scalars matrices and vectors; magnification, scale and affine transformations,symmetry of all types of measure and measurement tools, and tools of construction with methods of construction including neusis and arrangements of all sorts including aggregates ,bundles ,structure groups and basic operations of addition ,joining grouping and subtraction and division and separating and disaggregation.

In our response to notFS we intuitively create the geometric  background,and the measurement imperative with tool design based on fractal patterns and behaviours. So why did Number become so important? i think that the historical importance of number comes from a different subject to mathematics and its matheses. I think that Numerology and gematria have been confused with mathematics and took on an inordinate influence due to astrological and religious beliefs or faith systems. Certainly the number theory part of gematria is important, but not more significant tna anything else and not as useful as measure and measurement.

it was said that when pythagoras found out that some measurement could not be given an exact magnitude that he was dismayed, but that Eudoxus saved the day by developing a theory of proportion. At that time numerology became a seperate and minor field in mathematics , but no one recognised it in Greece.

Measurement is such a natural given in geometry that it is no surprise that vectors were identified and utilised by some in greek thought at the time, although not called vectors. There does not seem to be any early concept of vector in China, although i feel polar coordinate were natural to the chinese through the taijitu in the i ching and astronomical methods.

So really no one saw the need to develop an algebra of vectors until Bombelli , who did not of course se them as vectors but as adjugates to numbers or measurements. Bombelli was an engineer and saw them as measurements plus an adjugate . The adjugate was neusis but of course he would not have realised that, he focussed rather on the form "mene" the √-n.

What Bombelli had found was magnitude and neusis: magnitude and a kind of adjustment of direction of the measuring tool.

Later moebius and others in defining a vector as a magnitude and a direction left out the neusis, the "leaning toward" by adjustment and so missed the rotational element of a vector as well as the direction . Of course Euler took Bombellis work and restored the rotation but not the magnitude or the adjustment to direction.

It was not until Argand that the direction of the "number" became significantly linked with the magnitude and the rotation. I do not yet know what Grassman did in his Ausdenslehre the study of extension, but the full notion of Bombelli is really only repeated in Hamiltons work, which includes all the motions that should be ascribed to a vector definition: a measurment that has variable direction through rotation and translation.

Thus a +ib takes its full meaning, as being the translation part of neusis and i the rotation part and the measurement is given by       √(a^2+b^2).

Bombelli by giving rules formed what later became the algebra of "complex numbers" but now it should be recognised as the algebra of 2d vectors, which Hamilton extended over the hyperreal measures so called.
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
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« Reply #264 on: November 20, 2010, 10:29:03 PM »

C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! afro

its about time somebody else posted in this thread. (google 'the bloody board')
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« Reply #265 on: November 22, 2010, 05:53:13 AM »

By regarding gravity as a pressure field or system and looking at the ocean depths as an analogy the simple question why do things float, in particular why do gas bubbles that originate at the bottom of the ocean rise  relative to a gravitational pressure field, if such it is?

The observation that gravitational pressure causes a condensing motion is utilised as a starting point to think about this curious behaviour of a bubble rising when it originates at a place where the surrounding water pressure field is high but not uniform.

The motion indicates that the system is not in equilibrium despite the bubble presumably having a relative internal pressure equal to its surroundings.
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
jehovajah
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« Reply #266 on: November 22, 2010, 08:36:53 AM »

Algebra I feel now has grown up or at least the cell division for growing up has taken place.

One cannot form algebra without analysis,so within every playful algebraist is a keen analyst and observer.analysts as you might imagine are quite a weird bunch of people even for mathematicians, so it is good to keep the quality I think grounded and not abstracted into isolation.

As usual analysis distinguishes itself from algebra and algebra from geometry and maths from physics etc... But really the relational links are greater than the relational disconnects because the same human workers founded the mathesis or doctrinal methods in all. It is the doctrinal  part that drives the separation.

I pretty much think I have a proto structure forming in my mind for a modern ontology of manipume based on spaciometry adult algebra!   and calculii of various sorts with arithmetic hopefully being an example of an early example of this taxonomical structure.
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
jehovajah
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« Reply #267 on: November 22, 2010, 10:02:59 AM »

Algorithm. When I use the word I tend to use it in a more general sense as a specification of a set of motions that are sequential and iterative through a branch node specification which is based on the test operate test exit cybernetic principle. The algorithm is a kind of predicate to the entity it develops if you think of the entity as a sentence describing its motions.

This rather general gobbledy gook means that I can pretty much use algorithm in most transformation cases of interest and can make analogies with differing systems and within systems.

Analogous thinking is probably one of the first recorded types of thinking we human animates described, but of course it is a feature in all animates by degree. How very self similar and how fractal!
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
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« Reply #268 on: November 22, 2010, 10:05:52 AM »

By regarding gravity as a pressure field or system and looking at the ocean depths as an analogy the simple question why do things float, in particular why do gas bubbles that originate at the bottom of the ocean rise  relative to a gravitational pressure field, if such it is?

The observation that gravitational pressure causes a condensing motion is utilised as a starting point to think about this curious behaviour of a bubble rising when it originates at a place where the surrounding water pressure field is high but not uniform.

I used gravity for the creation of some of my pictures:
The motion indicates that the system is not in equilibrium despite the bubble presumably having a relative internal pressure equal to its surroundings.



I used gravity for the construction of some of my pictures.
http://www.wackerart.de/gallery/gravitation.html
http://www.videocinema.de/film.htm
Working with water colors can lead to a very fractalised picture.
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« Reply #269 on: November 22, 2010, 10:29:19 AM »

C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! afro

its about time somebody else posted in this thread. (google 'the bloody board')

Thanks James. Had not realized how intense it had become, while trying to work something out in different posts!

Just re read a bit and see typos and mis communications all over, so will try to tidy up. Hopefully got a render of a 3d hypotrochoid to post done in quasz, so that should break things up more.

Some of what I right may be right some wrong. That is not a problem to those with there eyes wide open, but I make the statement for anyone who may be tempted to think I have got it all right!

For example I have only just read a short biography of Descartes !! So that puts things in perspective. Descartes did think he was better than anybody else before him in describing reality, but that was just Descartes and I am sure he was an admirable fellow otherwise. We all have a delusion of grandeur anyway and we all certainly are hypocritical!
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May a trochoid of ¥h¶h iteratively entrain your Logos Response transforming into iridescent fractals of orgasmic delight and joy, with kindness, peace and gratitude at all scales within your experience. I beg of you to enrich others as you have been enriched, in vorticose pulsations of extravagance!
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