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Author Topic: Deepest - e10000  (Read 15913 times)
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2016, 11:31:54 PM »

Because you can enter r=0 and i=0.97 and any depth and still be within the Mandelbrot set
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hapf
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2016, 10:10:25 AM »

Because you can enter r=0 and i=0.97 and any depth and still be within the Mandelbrot set
That point is outside the set and not on the real axis.  huh?    Why are points on the real axis in the antenna region cheating?
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Chillheimer
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2016, 02:08:36 PM »

i guess because you don't have to actually zoom there, to know that it is within the mandelbrot set. you just enter a number and can be sure that it is part of the set.
the usual way we zoomers work is to find these points manually by zooming towards the border for hours and hours.. so just entering a number and say "I zoomed to this record depth" could be considered "cheating". (though, who cares wink)
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hapf
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2016, 03:10:02 PM »

i guess because you don't have to actually zoom there, to know that it is within the mandelbrot set. you just enter a number and can be sure that it is part of the set.
the usual way we zoomers work is to find these points manually by zooming towards the border for hours and hours.. so just entering a number and say "I zoomed to this record depth" could be considered "cheating". (though, who cares wink)
While all of the antenna till -2 as limes is part of the set it's towards -2 visually mostly empty space around a line or straight or bent line like structures. Finding the minibrots visually with zooming is not easier than when going up one of the lines away from the antenna. Finding a minibrot automatically should be as easy on the antenna or off. The deeper you go the longer it takes, though. Why it would be take 2 months I don't understand, unless one zooms in visually which is not necessary.
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2016, 04:12:06 PM »

Sorry, I meant you can enter Re: -1.97 and Im: 0 and any zoom value.
Why it would be take 2 months I don't understand, unless one zooms in visually which is not necessary.
Yes, finding this location was mainly done automatically, and yes that took 2 months.
First, the Series approximation was not as effective as it is now, since it was using only 3 terms at that time, and thankfully Botond Kosa showed me how to make arbitrary number of terms.
Second, the data type I use in Kalles Fraktaler was not as effective when it was 10-based as it is now when it is 2-based.
This data type is used beyond e4900, so going deeper than that is significantly slower.
(actually, if depth would still be the most important thing to do, long double could be scaled and be used down to e9800, but I haven't bothered to implement that)

Anyway, finding the location at e5000 was not so time consuming, but then centering the zoom until the minibrot was very time consuming even though it was automated. Have you ever tried it, if you think two months is a long time to do this?
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hapf
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2016, 05:29:35 PM »

Sorry, I meant you can enter Re: -1.97 and Im: 0 and any zoom value.Yes, finding this location was mainly done automatically, and yes that took 2 months.
First, the Series approximation was not as effective as it is now, since it was using only 3 terms at that time, and thankfully Botond Kosa showed me how to make arbitrary number of terms.
Second, the data type I use in Kalles Fraktaler was not as effective when it was 10-based as it is now when it is 2-based.
This data type is used beyond e4900, so going deeper than that is significantly slower.
(actually, if depth would still be the most important thing to do, long double could be scaled and be used down to e9800, but I haven't bothered to implement that)
Anyway, finding the location at e5000 was not so time consuming, but then centering the zoom until the minibrot was very time consuming even though it was automated. Have you ever tried it, if you think two months is a long time to do this?
If I just want a minibrot that deep and that's all I want I would not need series approximation, only arbitrary precision Newton iterations. While these take longer and longer as bits go up going to e-10000 is a matter of hours, not months, I would say. Computing the reference then would take some hours again, depending on iterations needed and order of series approximation used.
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2016, 07:01:18 PM »

If I just want a minibrot that deep and that's all I want I would not need series approximation, only arbitrary precision Newton iterations. While these take longer and longer as bits go up going to e-10000 is a matter of hours, not months, I would say. Computing the reference then would take some hours again, depending on iterations needed and order of series approximation used.
The automation in my case was made by finding symmetric center of the image pattern. If you have a mathematical solution it would be very interesting if you would explain that smiley
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claude
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2016, 07:22:33 PM »

Each minibrot (and each bulb) has an integer period P, so you solve f^P(0, c) = 0 for c where f(z,c) = z^2 + c you get the nucleus of the minibrot.  You can solve numerically using Newton's method for root finding: a solution to g(t) = 0 can be better and better approximated by iterating t_{n+1} = t_n - \frac{g(t_n)}{\frac{d}{dt}g(t_n)}.  You have to start from a reasonable guess t_0, otherwise you might be caught bouncing around between the fractal basins of attraction for too long, but when it starts to converge it usually converges pretty rapidly.  You might also end up at a minibrot whose period is a factor of the period you were after, but there are ways to check the result.

This post of mine has some pictures with basins for low periods:
http://mathr.co.uk/blog/2012-12-25_mandelbrot_set_newton_basins.html
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hapf
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2016, 09:03:40 PM »

The automation in my case was made by finding symmetric center of the image pattern. If you have a mathematical solution it would be very interesting if you would explain that smiley
See claude's posting.   grin
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2016, 03:51:15 PM »

Ok. Please give the parameters for a minibrot deeper than e10000 then... wink
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claude
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2016, 04:58:43 PM »

Using my mandelbrot-numerics code to find a period 20000 minibrot near i::

Code:
$ time ( m-size 50000 `m-nucleus 50000 0 1 20000 32 | tee /dev/stderr` 20000 )
...snip...
real    8m32.866s
user    8m27.684s
sys     0m0.116s

with results:

Code:
Real: -7.94371635020719854891738160412783355655571655934220979864154437186665266381839752694827412839798647961500393288206001718243574947969041001571452764573813270386773043890657915447590440682262982847984850747954651397530112905749405475656322952683099658907368560442258160650020607848404019574360015928310732321162892248353767660248370197290525936147027400641162839284358719120232798279335946667807358105438875167793741593547325266735069327302557778608644106179622519866122935283445393696343557633856896321836603613442558461094153199875350130482163704063056830338236495563673439039804535280785508071799728050867261772866764321466004183218020127059471832891869155131777148793623783744855003978556166275945987592382854914346001636616560970935690194642474350799683472931444242279303532082494681724726730215793068524121651255539648642881438793908961503336534572650294138320256272266401511874110343350075804826433466557434970496377256776889864232244369405531324605647258859564801875394658149346182974446044225587075779288942180746778730140063112382965935757129792815213763215220282228648802900473854773094929308599411389335234593128655705961816766820656646416251957119598501598919583996552648916958372557223670483862248293618337708488536783821892414834079173630777856887040339159451454451413820320985031133861211418216189764359098268780128103113152388389279428861457957252585570673517148583636601768074742304119073329884963616469528208780469933279651675925059743420699231452511254055112982107353820023514444751111958838715373753570192253249668373295851727004150649290597195686694158355363059076051950150675515327178060489599587207233515407720451367112670080914348577789947679519710429658805332761281607579456713410248426316697399348421904216287458230574853218767593126985409292256088816256083677149976337938821371162520666596848675233205259982355595191500395698228043440242483460453282606623505067669594412249210020781347809878342083995720267516303410640761285854328048228996451219086494380791861046262232250868350267279732070531069335456058075810861738389728075822784952247649213082437825670400017964695116284920963804738640435281128826388500084996503976174713121619465115431089540477322147326041925187615904292563389974241734512135917137265582720029921886674069030548689883618376890512670679090079403961656868087951068688380648550051080896212339507469642787298243494620219194528289122384879485919998382046000898894730797410798833415546961249865583490298587694425666197438155027638440977015278683283223237592285196828837817724864498950232968868903951567024882703973711396957106959906822062720685131843478689858753554377359860973443661102201460984546699116768724225074667262627728443966879920239803931804122526209629516006944876489894140461251413591077416433107817245402694455983274699016792738982236483908761297057937386400485705370954170438363459688523396294500025677001897775779648467905371046183931068799398357323949041524949463987272313849137872497458230017382893116457271038101978878775155394583543192631042855892679379794207412977468749003748893885495396328384416499711295357789312684393969978236394635812530246566920668407291430144255645534655305448512127921870136609665653341022339956029962840058531526194761671357631375481810866487416153177391152464571345907563692209886121824231068882728708949417669512506874667148077590404245131137769192663052846934827860000123183553702030005106499274369377990905739319653275146021741942478690314508498885788246072923605336506056596266334519288571982849118618955182528667685108492718112716744662153390074944257995892663303680374948085233220720153557023638725611501821394872889498558529148351911516472149535805779927657689235894521400922077748496598398591526894024900490146467804508553126342120419075974877882112231259535823874740555586322514596968577784108668373885354661780761108872715009186020735991100087828283498286019313596173574889070066927305748826842911520575560834348435316554497942304212184963480634409578595209299971155537132232724598938882225997145003158857582262512263839071008673739469491592103578094090661720264483653057268796903859030849653572938688839592414951182283574611329461089531972357016051084879329881399143836366382053366229072545212113372153549597813714998389405754608829232525356889838962795771410261837258032500259413668985519953173813432956024328548806809131054171714034788475725642201515019456412574072563407137580820711779059935656841767991738364945040633030627084938839175336944176880176190382309416787606626640570119659108002315396155092035685244233937354309136838434087989304238873837337071083152968515375527737951745716998725756754653076444863665684778600168820965083068993504957459413897743314655089063431674416519026715839254840077615901260018754086987760375481730005373105146271036737191067238754775650117874385944218918812933763418368173879599988846201728111862257411032737719753998571746301789152093746301249446548094347476639986415400892494510447473437939127386845304100653416668115765038751440800413766355884454192477208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565120487324475146126593516710180032457589644029021496e-01
Size: 2.395769e-15051

Probably want to zoom out a little bit to avoid a huge minibrot, the size is relative to the main continent (which would have size 1).  And no, I haven't rendered an image, moreover the zoom video would likely be boring spiralling around for most of it
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2016, 07:56:21 PM »

Impressive!
The zoom-movie starting this thread is also rather boring wink
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« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2016, 12:07:35 AM »

Each minibrot (and each bulb) has an integer period P, so you solve <Quoted Image Removed> for c where <Quoted Image Removed> you get the nucleus of the minibrot.  You can solve numerically using Newton's method for root finding: a solution to <Quoted Image Removed> can be better and better approximated by iterating <Quoted Image Removed>.  You have to start from a reasonable guess <Quoted Image Removed>, otherwise you might be caught bouncing around between the fractal basins of attraction for too long, but when it starts to converge it usually converges pretty rapidly.  You might also end up at a minibrot whose period is a factor of the period you were after, but there are ways to check the result.

This post of mine has some pictures with basins for low periods:
http://mathr.co.uk/blog/2012-12-25_mandelbrot_set_newton_basins.html

I am sorry but I don't understand the mathematical notations
f^P(0, c) = 0
f(z,c) = z^2 + c
g(t) = 0
t_{n+1} = t_n - \frac{g(t_n)}{\frac{d}{dt}g(t_n)}

Can you give an example?
If I have a location at r=-0.8691524744, i=0.2556487868 and zoom=1.25E5
Can you show how to get to the minibrot around e10?
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« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2016, 12:49:36 AM »

Ok.

The first step is to find the period of the central minibrot.  You can do this by iterating the 4 c corners of a box around the view, and seeing at which iteration count the 4 z points surround the origin.  See http://www.mrob.com/pub/muency/period.html for a more detailed description of the method, I have an implementation which you can read here: http://code.mathr.co.uk/mandelbrot-numerics/blob/HEAD:/c/lib/m_d_box_period.c (there's also an arbitrary precision version in the same directory)

Applying this algorithm to your point and radius gives a period of 48:
Code:
$ m-box-period 53 -0.8691524744 0.2556487868 1.25e-5 1000
48

Now you can apply Newton's method.  For each step of Newton's method you need the period'th iteration of z -> z^2+c starting from z = 0 gives 0, c, c^2 + c, ... and at the same time you calculate the running derivative dz -> 2 z dz + 1.  Pseudocode to make it explicit:

Code:
function F(c, period) {
  z = 0, dz = 0
  for (i = 0; i < period; ++i) {
    dz = 2 * z * dz + 1
    z = z * z + c
  }
  return z, dz
}

Now you can calculate the Newton step c_{n+1} = c_n - \frac{F}{dF}:

Code:
function Newton(c, period, maxsteps) {
  for (i = 0; i < maxsteps; ++i) {
    z, dz = F(c, period)
    c = c - z / dz
  }
  return c
}

You need to start from a "guessed" c value, the center of the box in which you found the period is usually good enough (the basins of attraction are fractal, in fact).  In real code you can stop if dz is 0 to avoid exploding, or when z/dz gets small enough, the maxsteps is just a safety measure - when it starts to converge it tends to get very close really quickly (quadratic convergence).  My implementation is here http://code.mathr.co.uk/mandelbrot-numerics/blob/HEAD:/c/lib/m_d_nucleus.c (and there's an arbitrary precision version in the same directory).

Applying Newton's method to the center of the view with period 48 gives:

Code:
$ m-nucleus 53  -0.8691524744 0.2556487868 48 64
-8.6915874972342078e-01 2.5565708568620021e-01

To find the size of the minibrot I use the algorithm described here http://ibiblio.org/e-notes/MSet/windows.htm my implementation is here http://code.mathr.co.uk/mandelbrot-numerics/blob/HEAD:/c/lib/m_d_size.c (arbitrary precision version in the same directory) which I'll paste here as it's very short:

Code:
extern double _Complex m_d_size(double _Complex nucleus, int period) {
  double _Complex l = 1;
  double _Complex b = 1;
  double _Complex z = 0;
  for (int i = 1; i < period; ++i) {
    z = z * z + nucleus;
    l = 2 * z * l;
    b = b + 1 / l;
  }  return 1 / (b * l * l);
}

It gives the size as a complex number, the magnitude is the size relative to the period 1 continent and the phase / argument is the angle of rotation.  Applying this to your period 48 nucleus gives:

Code:
$ m-size 53 -8.6915874972342078e-01 2.5565708568620021e-01 48
1.1864737161932281e-08 -5.9691937849660148e-01

my program splits it into magnitude and phase (in radians) for convenience, so the minibrot is 1.1865e-8 times the size of the period 1 continent, so multiply the view size of your initial view by this number to get the minibrot to appear about the same size.

I attached an image of the minibrot (rendered with distance estimation).


* period-48-minibrot.jpg (246.06 KB, 1280x720 - viewed 652 times.)
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Kalles Fraktaler
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« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2016, 10:46:23 AM »

This is really interesting, thanks a lot!
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