Which encoder?

[EchoEcho]

For the long slow motion z^2+c mandelbrot I used:
 - fraktal_sft64.exe, version 2.7.3, together with ldbl64.dll
 - KeyFramesMovie.exe, the current version back in those 2.7.3 days
 - VirtualDub 1.9.11
 - Lagarith (codec)
 - x264vfw (codec)
 - mkvmerge v7.8.0 ("River Man") 64bit
 - HandBrake 0.10.1.6962 64bit

1. KFR

Firstly I let KFR generate 3840x2160 .kfb files from 2014-11-27 till 2015-3-21.
This resulted in 1563 .kfb files, from 00001_1.61e470.kfb to 01563_0.9.kfb, total size 96 GB.

After that, I used 7z for (solid) compressing those all .kfb files (96 GB) into a single 44 GB archive.
I'm still keeping that one as a backup.

2. KFM

Encoding the .kfb files to .avi files, I used KFM with Lagarith which is lossless. For me, Lagarith's never caused me any colour issues.
I set KFM Speed control to 600 video frames per .kfb file, 300 frames per movie, Movie size 1920x1080, Code color bits setting unchanged (24 bits).
I don't use the option 'Show zoom text', since that hinders recoding to lower resolutions. I'd prefer to add subtitles as a last step.

3. VirtualDub

When I opened the first Lagarith video file (300 frames) I noticed a bunch of identical frames at the beginning. So I skipped that one, opened the second one instead and appended the remaining files.

(I suspect thet KFM didn't like dealing with frames with a zoom factor less than 1. I've never investigated that though.)

I encoded the whole video to h264 .avi files using the Save segmented avi option for keeping those below 2GB each. Rate control was set to CQP with low quantizer value (lower quantizer = higher quality).
I prefer CQP to CRF when I don't use lossless encoding. CQP seems to generate better results as input for later encoding into different formats /resolutions.

I noticed temporal aliasing and extra pixel jittering around every 20th second (at about the beginning and ending of each .kfb zoom)
So I also used a motion blur filter. That seemed improve things and the jittering was much less, which saved quite a few bits when encoding.

4. mkvmerge

I glued all h264 .avi files into one big .mkv file, no recoding involved. Matroshka containers support large file sizes.

Since this process didn't involve any recoding and the sum of h264 .avi files was equal to the .mkv, I deleted the .avi files.

VLC could play this video quite well, both full screen and as desktop background.


5. HandBrake

I recoded faster /shorter versions of the animation for testing purposes. Both into h264 and h265.
I didn't do that with the full slow motion 8.5 hours version though.

04/21/2015  09:22 PM     2,747,754,681 manp2 x9 00h57m51s - iPad h264 cqp25 fastdecode.mp4
04/22/2015  04:48 AM        65,124,480 manp2 x9 00h57m51s - iPad h265 cqp25.mkv
04/22/2015  07:58 AM        94,555,073 manp2 x9 00h57m51s - iPad h265 fastpreset cqp25.mkv
04/22/2015  08:10 AM     2,651,527,749 manp2 x9 00h57m51s - iPad h265 slowpreset cqp25.mkv
04/24/2015  07:59 AM     1,781,237,870 manp2 x18 00h28m55s - iPad h265 veryslowpreset cqp25.mp4
04/27/2015  09:47 AM     1,687,090,225 manp2 x18 00h28m55s - iPad h264 veryslowpreset cqp25.mp4

[EchoEcho]

Something I forgot...

I haven't encoded to h265 with VirtualDub. That codec doesn't seem to be available, even when running the version 1.10.4 32 bits. (The 64 bits version doesn't support all codecs and filters.)

I used HandBrake for h265 instead. Not for the full slow motion video, since that would take a huge while and also because I prefer better antialising in earlier stages. I would not be satisfied.
That's the main reason I'm currently running another experiment (7680x4320 with slopes). Hopefully I may start the encodings next week or the week after. Those will be 1920x1080 and lower.

Antialised 4K end results would not be an option as of yet. I don't have the hardware to watch without scaling, nor do I have the patience; I reckon I'd be rendering 15360x8640 resolutions or worse at the KFR stage...

[Kalles Fraktaler]

I wonder if there is any chance you will get rid of the fixed resolution? no need to make it completely variable, but same x as y, 1920*1920 would be really great and also help when switching on rotation.

Yeah, that would be next target

thx.. you mean aeronaut? or the other?
I've uploaded aeronaut to the server in high qualita and can pm you the link if you like..

I was thinking about the Meditation

I then always use Microsoft Movie Maker, which is also available as a standard Windows program.

I tried that too, but i don't know how to achieva a good output quality. even in the highest setting it does horrible things to the details and the gradients.

I am color blind...  

For the long slow motion z^2+c mandelbrot I used:
 - fraktal_sft64.exe, version 2.7.3, together with ldbl64.dll
 - KeyFramesMovie.exe, the current version back in those 2.7.3 days
...

Amazing, this is really cool and unexpected way of using the possibility to do a really deep and long Movie

[Chillheimer]

@echoecho: thx for answering all my questions!  
lots of useful information in there! thx for sharing!

2. KFM
...
I set KFM Speed control to 600 video frames per .kfb file, 300 frames per movie, Movie size 1920x1080, Code color bits setting unchanged (24 bits).

holy moly!  
how long was rendertime for your 8 1/2hour movie?! it must have been weeks or even months=!?!
I know that such render times were common with fractal extreme, but not with kf....
how many gb (or tb?!?) was the total output of avis?

and I thought I was crazy, with my 15 minutes of 4k with 2*aa..
ok, I'll get back to my sandbox...  

5. HandBrake
04/21/2015  09:22 PM     2,747,754,681 manp2 x9 00h57m51s - iPad h264 cqp25 fastdecode.mp4

It's been a long time since a last used handbrake. what are these numbers? especially the third? 2,747,754,681   is this like 2,7gigabyte?


I have more questions and more to share, but only limited time, so I'll put some questions on my "ask later"-list.  

Yeah, that would be next target

wooohooo!!!

I was thinking about the Meditation

uploading this night. trailblazers deserves full resolution!  

I am color blind...  

are you friggin serious?!  
.. or just a joke?  

Amazing, this is really cool and unexpected way of using the possibility to do a really deep and long Movie

now this has become a huge point on the "ask later"list!
wtf?!? I need to try (whatever that is) after finishing my current project. which might take a few weeks.... ohh, how I "prefer" audio-production. rendertimes that are realtime or (if really bad) 2 times or 3 times the actual playtime.
but those visuals....... hooked. no way back ever!!!
need.... more.... cpu....

[EchoEcho]

It's been a long time since a last used handbrake. what are these numbers? especially the third? 2,747,754,681   is this like 2,7gigabyte?

04/21/2015  09:22 PM     2,747,754,681 manp2 x9 00h57m51s - iPad h264 cqp25 fastdecode.mp4
 - x9 means "nine times as fast as the slow-motion version"
 - I encoded for iPad using CQP set to 25 with the fast decode option switched on to make it a bit less effort when playing on iPad
 - yes, filesize is 2.747754681 Bytes, somewhere between 2.5 GB and 2.6 GB

Generating .kfb files with KFF: 114 days.
Rendering to lagarith: 9 days, 3126 files, in total 2.69 TB (2,959,914,733,568 Bytes)

I think the encoding from lagarith to h264 took a week or so.

I've never used colour cycling. The effect is quite different when comparing high complexity scenes with low complexity ones. The effect I really like with colour cycling is when colours stay on the same spot. This can create a morphing effect instead of zooming /growing. However, that would require quite an amount of tweaking; different parts of the fractal video have different complexities so the colour cycling speed would have to changing gradually, depending on image complexities. Apart from that, scenes with both high complexity and low complexity at the same time (at different areas in the image), cannot be dealt with that way.

If KFR would be a server/client thing, we could bundle CPU time ... :-)

[Chillheimer]

Generating .kfb files with KFF: 114 days.
Rendering to lagarith: 9 days, 3126 files, in total 2.69 TB (2,959,914,733,568 Bytes)
I think the encoding from lagarith to h264 took a week or so.

oh.
my.
god!!!

speechless!

I've never used colour cycling. The effect is quite different when comparing high complexity scenes with low complexity ones. The effect I really like with colour cycling is when colours stay on the same spot. This can create a morphing effect instead of zooming /growing. However, that would require quite an amount of tweaking; different parts of the fractal video have different complexities so the colour cycling speed would have to changing gradually, depending on image complexities. Apart from that, scenes with both high complexity and low complexity at the same time (at different areas in the image), cannot be dealt with that way.

If KFR would be a server/client thing, we could bundle CPU time ... :-)

hahaaa, we're really in for some serious geek talk! 
I sooo know what you are talking about.
and this is so hard to achieve.
I've managed it a few times, but just temporarily, like here:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Qup7a0d1gxI&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/Qup7a0d1gxI&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
at around 3:45 min
i hope someday there is a way to "lock" colours at a certain "distance".
stupid language.. I don't even know how to  express all this...

[EchoEcho]

I think I know what you mean by locking colours at the same distance.

Distance from the edges of the viewport?

What about a way of keeping track of lowest /highest /average /median iterationcount of any pixel for each keyframe (.kfb file) ?
During the animation, those numbers should go up faster when passing high complexity parts while going up slower when passing low complexity parts.
(Probably those numbers should get some cleaning with averaging or a spline-like approach?)
That might improve things or at least making things easier to set up. This would colour cycling speed that would vary per video frame, not only per .kfb keyframe.
Additionally, being able to vary zoom speed within keyframes would help too...

The above does not fix this matter, completely nor would it be a total solution for scenery with both low and high complexity. For that, we would need to deform the palette itself by both stretching and shrinking those parts that are currently in view. Stretching one part of the visible palette while shrinking the other visible part keeps the remainder of the palette unchanged.

With fixed colour cycling without palette deformation, you'll be using a specific 'part' within the palette. That part only gets bigger with higher complexity and smaller with lower complexity.
With perfect colour cycling, palette deformation included, you'll have that same part within the palette. However, that part does not grow or shrink. High complexity frames would use less colours than normally, low complexity frames would use more.

If all above works, you'd think of a 'palette drift' setting that lets you control the way colours move. Set it to 0 and you've locked the colours, while other values cause the colors to move towards /away from you.

B.T.W.
That video is great! Seeing those squares dive away into the zoom is quite hypnotic 

[EchoEcho]

If things are working properly over here, you should be able to fetch the following using P2P.

See attached zip file with four torrents pointing to stuff related to the slomo I've been working on
Those torrents include a video of 62,1 MB with a duration of 28 minutes or something.
Three of those four torrents point to directories so that folks don't need to download them fully; it should be possible to fetch individual files.

The shared data:

• 30xKFB plus source KFR
  1,85 GB folder: 30 .kfb files plus source .kfr
  
• 30xKFB plus source KFR.7z
  1013 MB archive: 30 .kfb files plus source .kfr compressed as 7z solid archive
  
• export
  8,40 GB folder: 7 .avi files h264 /h265 (two 9x speed, five 18x speed, smallest file 62,1 MB)
  
• snaps plus source KFR
  less than 60 MB: 16 .png images, snapshotted straight from VLC playing slomo vid, resolution 1920x1080
  (source .kfr included)
  

All shares but the 7z archive can be used for downloading individual files.

The videos do not show zoom factors.

This is the source:

Code:

Re: -0.749845781430814981051598009113483320126520117330232605651496459651195365686115803752560404704442071686679949224753064623608564351888903873408290387852606360788963532065499121856351803120022678697152134223559365902484405759252770699073227440024426083238155926170219502997107773717504951768510667076939504133240515605611634991045506921296844724513987913054520271918308036105499526323583480561968043077233543579935529701874956235189781613298519953304550221948612632763066275254916410350735485
Im: -0.02185967264028973990968340401990707654610130944403781978761793416610375642334028937538874800794404262510505971929356295604924656398667209969521495029025413702645985285299946438532086602209205435254533101938540869281908054705394301093135615235514189190132975300845939731395156031142952005492673589187905068071432516274983407567922718866461663571721260689106698237077488958588279746098895785861595930696875633926981301417415672151683685053623022180801337648297574373552174074697587967295288
Zoom: 1.61753328852E470
Iterations: 30000000
IterDiv: 20.000000
SmoothMethod: 0
ColorMethod: 0
ColorOffset: 0
Rotate: 0.000000
Ratio: 360
Colors: 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Smooth: 1
MultiColor: 1
BlendMC: 1
MultiColors: 503	0	0,211	100	1,83	0	2,
Power: 2
FractalType: 0

[youhn]

I've managed it a few times, but just temporarily, like here:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Qup7a0d1gxI&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/Qup7a0d1gxI&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
at around 3:45 min
i hope someday there is a way to "lock" colours at a certain "distance".

I've used KF to do this kind of "morphing" : <a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7L-GW96nkY4&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/7L-GW96nkY4&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>

Other coloring methods might work better. Watch some videos from SeryZone https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsRbcv18VcWJVtfAtbKV1Vw for ideas.

[Chillheimer]

hey youhn, that one is pretty cool!
fascinating how everyone has his very own way of using kf.. 

and echoecho, I never thought of using bittorrent to share such large files! this is a great idea.. maybe that's a way how we could build up a nice little database of high quality kf-renders here, for the small circle of fractal gourmets..
our pc's are running all nights anyway, why not use the bandwidth as well?
is it easy to set up a torrent? what tracker do you use?

your video is great! no wonder the rendertime was so long, as you start in such a dense area.. thx for sharing. I'll help seeding, if anyone else would like to have a watch!


and fired up by this thread, I had to go and test the limits of kallesfractaler and h265.
so I went and rendered a short zoom-sequence in 15360*8640, in moviemaker down to 4K , so 4*aa using lagarith, joined in virtual dub and encoded with h265 in handbrake.
(thanks for the tip with handbrake. had forgotten about this tool! finally a way to encode in h265 comfortably!

if you have a 4k screen, 150mb download:
http://www.chillheimer.de/downloads/fractalzooms/3sisters_0-6-4k-h265-rf25-preview.mp4
and the same thing with 8*aa in full hd, 25mb download:
http://www.chillheimer.de/downloads/fractalzooms/3sisters_0-6-h265-25-preview.mp4
oh, vlc doesn't play this here I have to use media player classic to get it to work. please tell me how it works for you.


i have to say: i love the details, especially that they stay crystal clear even at the borders..
and the quality of h265 is awesome, especially regarding the small size with 24mb for 30sec full hd!

rendertime in moviemaker: 15 hours for these 30 seconds
so, around 6 days to go for the full movie.. will share if I get a hang of the torrent-thing.

[EchoEcho]

I have decided to share the sloped fractal zoom completely with torrent. I intend to encode it as slow motion in h265 which surely will take more than 30 milliseconds... 

I'll be posting the source .kfr as well, somewhere on this forum probably this thread.

These experiments are mainly for getting the hang of KFR and KFM and encoding. Recall that I'm lazy and have not written any byte of source code related to this genius algorithm. I do have too many ideas though...

[Kalles Fraktaler]

are you friggin serious?!  
.. or just a joke?  

Yep, I am having a defect green vision.
A couple of years ago someone found an online color test:
http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge
all who responded on that thread got very low values.
I get 168...

[laser blaster]

Yep, I am having a defect green vision.
A couple of years ago someone found an online color test:
http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge
all who responded on that thread got very low values.
I get 168...

168 is not too bad, definitely not color blind. I did a test where I put them in rough order, but left some out of place a bit and the score was in the 300's. So even someone with a score in the 300's still has a considerable ability to discern colors. Although if your color vision is really bad for greens but great for everything else, then it might be possible to score 168 and still be color blind, but I doubt it.

Trying my hardest, I got a score of 0. It said "perfect color vision",  but apparently some people have negative scores though, so I guess I didn't do perfectly after all.

[Chillheimer]

VLC could play this video quite well, both full screen and as desktop background.

I don't remember if/where this has been answered already, but: how do you do this??


also, I've finished the 15360*8xyz video -->4k 4*aa or hd
 8aa
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/L02q35XDbXA&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/L02q35XDbXA&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
if anyone wants the h265 encoded version with 300mb just say so, I'll pm you a link..

this test also brought me to the answer of the original question of this thread. which encoder?
h265 it is. its incredible what results and level of detail without colour-smearing you get with this at very small filesizes!
it's worlds beyond xvid or others I've tried!
full recommendation. but know that many players can'T cope with the format. though I've found "universal media server" a very usefull tool to get it onto your hd-tv works like a charme without stuttering.

[EchoEcho]

@Chillheimer:
Your slomo is quite interesting, the way the palette moves seems to enhance the 3d effect as if the pattern is pulsing without shifting the colours too much. I do spot some jumps in the palette but maybe that's youtube recoding stuff as it always does. Recoding works best when providing lossless source and I'm not sure if youtube is willing to recode **huge** h264 lossless source videos.
edit: your slomo is more than quite interesting, how much patience would one need to render a 4K video of 24hours long with such antialiasing? Just think of the weeks of encoding to pristine h265... I'd be doing that in the winter time because it might increase the room temperature :-)

About colour perception and testing if one has 'perfect' colour vision. I think that setting up a good and unbiased test could turn out to be not too simple.
Sometimes green can be yellowish or blueish without actual changes to the actual colour pigment/pixel itself.

<a href="https://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=26788521&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=01AAEA" target="_blank">https://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=26788521&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;show_title=1&amp;show_byline=1&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=01AAEA</a>

However....

I have cancelled the slope thing and continued the same zoom without slopes. I've completed 7680x4320 .kfb's, rendered those to 1920x1080 (for antialiasing) with 900 frames per .kfb file, using Lagarith as codec. Another reason for me to not encode to mpg immediately, is that with Lagarith I can jump to any frame without waiting for virtualdub. So it's practically like random for me, I just click somewhere in the timeline and the frame immediately comes up.

I'll be sharing 12 movies using bittorrent, varying the following properties, all the same very boring zoom from .9 to 1.23e27 (see source below):
 - 1920x1080 resolution (h265 codec) versus 1280x720 (h264 codec)
 - 'original' slow motion (45m20s) versus factor 9 speedup (5m02s) versus factor 18 speedup (2m31s)
 - constant quality ratefactor 19 (higher fidelity and bigger filesize) versus constant quality ratefactor 22 (smaller filesize)

Any 'big' file will have a .mkv containers, smaller ones like the x18 speedups are all .mp4.

The failed slope piece will also be available, probably as h264 .mpg just for showing why I cancelled the slope thing.
As it seems, using 870x4320 .kfb's as input leads to 'slope' jumps every 'keyframe' so for me each 900 video frames.
I've have tested this with 2.7.9 KFF with the KFM version of that time. Could be that using latest KFM doesn't have this issue.


If requested I'll provide the 91 .kfb files involved (7680x4320, slopes included) on bittorrent as well. I do have the equivalent .jpg's of that same resolution, included the failed ones at the beginning of the zoom (low zoom factor).

All .kfb's have been rendered with max iteration fixed to 15000000.

I guess that apart from slopes, I'll be working on finding an acceptably easy way of getting rid of any colour banding. Using a bit of noise for that is supposed to do the trick, as it should be smearing out the rounding errors that you get when throwing away (colour)bits. By smearing rounding errors, the average rounding error per pixel per frame can remain unchanged while our brains have a harder time to notice the colour information loss.
Videos with slow position /colour changes to large surfaces with shallow gradients suffer the most of colour banding I think.

Code:
Re: -1.6342330212502773039809267716370300604749370666765
Im: -0.0061555076590801331006322236845740313262887307265
Zoom: 1.23794003928E27
Iterations: 15000000
IterDiv: 19.000000
SmoothMethod: 0
ColorMethod: 0
ColorOffset: 0
Rotate: 0.000000
Ratio: 360
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Smooth: 1
MultiColor: 0
BlendMC: 0
MultiColors:
Power: 2
FractalType: 0
Slopes: 1
SlopePower: 50
SlopeRatio: 50
SlopeAngle: 45
imag: 0
real: 1