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Author Topic: Fractals & Nature  (Read 10675 times)
Description: How come fractal shapes often remind of ones found in nature?
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aluminumstudios
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 06:22:39 AM »

Fractals are even in old horror movies.  Isn't the puzzle box from the old horror movie Hellraiser a mandelbox?  http://classic-horror.com/images/hellraiser-dvd.jpg  smiley
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reesej2
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 08:27:57 AM »

Hah, so it is. Interestingly obscure place to find a fractal...
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Power 8
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 06:50:06 PM »

Nice find, the hellraiser mandelbox, that artist must of had some kind of demonic precognitive vision! And your thai temple photo is also very "mandelboxian" aluminumstudios, but as much as I also respect Carl Sagan, I have to disagree with you concerning water, I think it's largely taken for granted and overlooked,  that it's massive presence in all life that we know of is not fortuitous,  and that it will be discovered to play a very crucial part in the "putting together" of lifeforms. I've always found it odd to hear it said that life is "carbon based" when carbon  makes for about 20% of the human body whereas water makes for 60 to 70%... But that's  my own personal "metaphysics" and I hold no grudge against people who do not share these views.
It's just to mention these interesting pictures of snowflakes made by a William Bentley in the 1920s :



Plenty more here: http://snowflakebentley.com/snowflakes.htm
some kind of "fractality"  there too...
« Last Edit: April 10, 2010, 12:36:09 AM by Power 8 » Logged
Sockratease
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« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 08:03:43 PM »

I've always found it odd to hear it said that life is "carbon based" when carbon  makes for about 20% of the human body whereas water makes for 60 to 70%... But that's  my own personal "metaphysics" and I hold no grudge against people who do not share these views.

I never thought that made sense either.

DNA is Carbon based, sure. But we can't EAT pure Carbon like we can pure Water!
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Life is complex - It has real and imaginary components.

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aluminumstudios
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 08:17:20 PM »

I'm not a biologist, so I can't say for certain, but I would guess that the "carbon based' classification is based on the role of carbon in organic molecules and it's chemical abilities.  I believe carbon is present and the key building block that holds all molecules of life on Earth together due to it's electron arrangement which allow it to bond with many other atoms in many ways.  Water acts as more of a medium and catalyst.  While there is a lot of water in life, it's the large molecules held together by carbon that really define life for scientists. 
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Sockratease
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 10:33:14 PM »

Well, I happen to be a Chemist with a few courses in Organic Chemistry behind me (but admittedly few Biology courses).  I think it's more Carbon's ability to bond with itself, forming long chains and rings and such, that allow it to be called the "Base" of Life.

But like many things in Science - it just sounds wrong and feels counter-intuitive.

I understand the reasoning behind the use of the phrase - as I said, DNA is Carbon Based, but that does nothing to make me FEEL Better about it!

I don't have to like it to acknowledge it and understand it.

I just think Water would be a better choice Aesthetically. 
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Power 8
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 01:01:54 AM »

Sockratease, yes I agree carbon is a building block but I somehow feel water to be the builder. I guess this post is leaving the fractal domain to enter biochemistry... But it's a subject that I find really interesting though. If your sprinkle carbon over  a seed like say an acorn, full of oak DNA, nothing much will happen , but add water...
There are a million examples like that. Where did life begin? In what substance does a foetus develop? etc... A chemist friend of mine said I was rambling about this because water is an inert substance.. This I clearly do not understand as to me water is one of the least inert substances on earth and seems always to be changing and moving.
I've been reading up on waterclusters on this interesting site by an english professor in chemistry:
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/index2.html It's quite fascinating...

But now back to fractals, bulbs and boxes, I made a new little mandelbulb video today using both Visions of Chaos and Mandelbulb3D:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/3LffNMiSkHc&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/3LffNMiSkHc&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>

BTW Sockratease how's that fractal zoom for the independent movie coming?


« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 04:39:39 AM by Power 8, Reason: spelling... » Logged
Power 8
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2010, 04:43:07 AM »

Looking at the snowflakes at: http://snowflakebentley.com/snowflakes.htm

It seems they're all power 6!
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Power 8
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2010, 01:38:36 AM »

Theses are pretty incredible too
Not Juliabulbs or Mandelbulbs but Pollen Bulbs rendered by Nature V1.0
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/multimedia/picture_gallery/Love_is_in_the_air.html?cid=8670836


« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 01:44:40 AM by Power 8 » Logged
tim
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2010, 01:01:28 AM »

just love philosophy.  I have noticed patterns in almost everything.  As I research more about Buddhism and reincarnation. Logically I could see how reincarnation could be considered an iteration.  Karma, have that cause and effect property, maintains the pattern from one life to the next.  All of this I see in a macro lens of the Universe.  But the more I compare what fractals are against what is known in the universe I can project out logically and make a good guess that is more certain than just a leap of faith.  Am I making sense?

I have many examples, but on lunch at work and want more time to write about it
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Wel lEnTaoed
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2010, 03:16:13 PM »

Nature has always been fractal.  We just needed to discover fractal geometry to duplicate it.
just love philosophy.  I have noticed patterns in almost everything.  As I research more about Buddhism and reincarnation. Logically I could see how reincarnation could be considered an iteration.  Karma, have that cause and effect property, maintains the pattern from one life to the next.  All of this I see in a macro lens of the Universe.  But the more I compare what fractals are against what is known in the universe I can project out logically and make a good guess that is more certain than just a leap of faith.  Am I making sense?

I have many examples, but on lunch at work and want more time to write about it

Yes your making sense to me.  I also love exploring differing philosophies. (as you can tell by my user name) wink
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iteron
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2010, 07:51:20 PM »

I found something from  Przemyslaw Prusinkiewicz in his book The Algorithmic Beauty of Plants interesting to the discussion;

Quote
An interesting question, however, concerns the relationship between
fractals and real biological structures.

 The latter consist of a finite number of cells, thus are not fractals in
 the strict sense of the word.

 To consider real plants as approximations of "perfect" fractal structures would be
acceptable only if we assumed Plato's view of the supremacy of ideas
over their mundane realization. A viable approach is the opposite one,
to consider fractals as abstract descriptions of the real structures. At
first sight, this concept may seem strange. What can be gained by
reducing an irregular contour of a compound leaf to an even more ir-
regular fractal? ...


By the way the emphasis in the quote is mine.

It's an interesting idea indeed.  Are there true fractals in nature (in the strict sense of the word).  That is objects that have infinite self similarity?

I tend to think that there must be and the scientists at the particle colliders will not find that last "building block" or fundamental particle system.   With infinite time subdivision probably has no limit.

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Power 8
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2010, 06:33:06 PM »

Iteron asks :
Quote
Are there true fractals in nature (in the strict sense of the word).  That is objects that have infinite self similarity?
I don't think infinite self similarity exists in Nature but the  romanesco broccoli, well known by Fractal forum members,  is impressively fractal... Self similarity is not infinite but you can "zoom in" at least three or 4 times and find the same structure. It would be interesting to take macro or microscopic photos of it to see how  far this goes...


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