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Author Topic: the 3 wtc buildings were brought down by controlled demolition  (Read 1823 times)
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quaz0r
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 11:55:02 PM »

Quote from: sockratease
Feel free to take sentence fragments out of context and invent your own fictitious motivations for them all you like.

my response to your qualifier of "most of us are working adults" was entirely valid, in addition to my elaboration on the matter in my last post,

Quote from: sockratease
Sorry if you are just young

and your sentiments about age and self-reliance even continues here in the very response in which you tell me i dreamed it all up and took it all out of context. undecided

Quote from: sockratease
It just makes you look bad.

i would posit that responding in a calm, collected, and intelligent manner to the actual content of what others say does not make one look bad.  i would further posit that the off-topic distractions offered by some of those who respond to this thread instead of offering intelligent insights into the subject at hand is the sort of thing that makes one look bad.

Quote from: sockratease
Of course it was about having enough time to sit through 9 hours of video!

clearly that was part of what you said.  the qualifier about most of us being working adults was also part of what you said.

Quote from: sockratease
Not only that, it was pointing out that as a working adult, I have other responsibilities which preclude allocating that much time to something which I have already researched in the hopes of discovering a sentence or two I have not already heard - but the most important point was totally lost on you, so here it is again in all it's original and unedited glory

yes i did actually read and understand all of what you said.  you have indicated that you have looked into this subject and are perhaps more informed on the matter than the average person.  im not sure how i indicated that i didnt understand that.  to the contrary, much respect to you for that!   smiley

Quote from: sockratease
Sorry if you are just young and all this is new to you

sorry to quote that a second time but, really, what is that even doing there?  undecided  this is the sort of thing that makes one look bad.  im reticent to even validate it with a response, but since you feel so passionately about it, it just so happens that i too am an adult and was also an adult at the time of the 911 attacks, and also have been familiar with all the material on the subject for a long time.

Quote from: sockratease
I'm actually shocked you didn't bring up all the questionable data around the supposed plane that hit the Pentagon!

indeed, there is just so much information and so many facets to what happened that day.  what i really like about the architects and engineers group for instance is that they focus on the destruction of the 3 world trade center buildings, as the most clear-cut evidence and scientific analysis can be applied to this one topic alone, which also acts to filter out lots of the conspiracy theorizing and such that one can do regarding the events as a whole.   smiley

Quote from: sockratease
The main justification for my indifference

you dont need to justify your indifference or waning interest in the subject.  sorry if you felt like i was attacking you for that or whatever.  certainly most if not all of us who have been around and researched this over the past 14 years is at least somewhat burned out.

Quote from: sockratease
There were others, including moderators in our private moderators forum, who wanted this topic removed

no doubt.  smiley

Quote from: sockratease
it was me who stood up for your right to discuss it.

i realized that, and appreciate that.  again, much respect!  smiley

Quote from: sockratease
Do not make me regret that decision with personal attacks which are obviously contrived and clearly without merit.

again, sorry if i come on a bit strong, im simply passionate about reality.  again though i was simply responding to something that was actually said, not something i dreamed up with no merit.  if the bit about most people being working adults just slipped in there without any negative connotations intended, you can just say so and i can accept that.

Quote from: sockratease
don't you dare accuse me of not caring about science

hmm, i just reread my posts and im not seeing where i either said or insinuated that.  maybe im just not seeing it.  either way, thats not what i think about you... as youve said you have actually done research on this topic which is not the actions of someone who isnt interested in reality.

Quote from: sockratease
it will never be resolved in our lifetimes!

indeed it will likely never be resolved in an official capacity.   undecided   this is why i am passionate about trying to ignite discussions about it wherever i can.   smiley
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quaz0r
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2015, 06:24:12 AM »

Quote from: sockratease
don't you dare accuse me of not caring about science

actually i just realized you were probably responding to my response to your bit about working adults.  i more took that as an excuse you were offering for those other than yourself who would claim they cant be bothered to take a look at the evidence.  what i said in response to that was more responding to that statement in a general sense, not really insinuating anything about you personally, as you had already indicated you were personally well-versed on the subject.  in any case, i think we're focusing on the wrong things here.  what i find more notable is that we share a genuine passion for knowing reality for what it really is.  i dont know about you, but i always find it highly refreshing to learn that im not the only one who actually wants to know the universe for what it really is, regardless whether it is upsetting or challenging or horrible or beautiful or anywhere in between.  the vast majority of people have motivations other than a pure desire to know reality for what it is, regardless what they might claim.  cheers   A Beer Cup
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2015, 01:00:07 PM »

it looks like the entirety of the structure was engulfed in flame.  much the opposite of wtc 1, 2, and 7.  even so, did that structure "collapse" into its own footprint at the acceleration of gravity i wonder?

Nope, the structures did not collapse at all.
And they were only 10 floors high.
100 appartements were demolished but not collapsed.
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kram1032
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2015, 01:36:45 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/nN3qUXJp7l0&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/nN3qUXJp7l0&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>

In case 4 minutes weren't enough
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quaz0r
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2015, 02:03:13 PM »

In case 4 minutes weren't enough

indeed 4 minutes is not indicative that a presentation will adequately respond to all the analysis offered by presentations measuring from 2 to 5 hours in duration.  this one you link to is 17 minutes.  that is probably insufficient as well, but i have higher hopes for this one.  lets see what we have here.

"The following video contains footage of the 9/11 attacks that some viewers my find distressing."  reads the disclaimer at the beginning of the video.  this presentation hasnt even begun yet and my hopes for a detail-oriented top-notch production are already suffering.

"a friend of mine said i should take this opportunity to walk down to ground zero and ask some 9/11 truthers about the tragic events of 2001."  honestly, this is all you really need to know about this presentation to safely stop watching and not worry about missing out on anything intelligent or relevant.  this is a favored tactic of those unwilling or incapable of responding to the person, group, idea, or body of information in question.  even more cowardly than attacking the actual messenger, go out on the street corner and find a few individuals who identify themselves as supporters of the person, group, idea, or body of information, and capture them appearing silly, stupid, and ignorant.  of course you can do this with anything, and the only thing it proves is your own cowardice.  you could go out on the street corner and find people who believe the official 9/11 story who also believe the earth was created a few thousand years ago by a guy on a cloud with a beard.  you could go out on the street corner and find people who believe the earth revolves around the sun who also are holocaust deniers.  i bet you could even go out and find people who believe in newton's 3 laws of motion who also believe that the official theory of the 3 world trade center skyscrapers pulverizing themselves to dust from the top down through the path of greatest resistance by way of gravitational collapse is an entirely plausible scientific possibility.  wink   here's one i saw recently that was kind of amusing, this guy goes around interviewing people off the street who identify themselves as obama supporters who think that karl marx is obama's foreign policy advisor or something and endorse karl marx to run for president: 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/99JdDgglMuA&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/99JdDgglMuA&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>

but i digress.   grin

of course the fact that i could stop watching this presentation before it even begins and remain totally confident that i am not missing out on anything intelligent or relevant does not mean i will.  what fun would that be?   smiley  lets continue.

first off, we get to interview a cat lady on the street corner about her thoughts on which model airplanes the twin towers were designed to withstand an impact from.  according to her recollection it is probably a newer model than the boeing 707.  poor cat lady.  you are about to get debunked.  amidst the ensuing debunking we are even offered up nice formulas like the formula for finding the kinetic energy of an object.  this rekindled my hopes for this presentation, but only fleetingly.  apparently the math and physics related to the impact of the airplanes is more relevant than the math and physics related to the actual destruction of the 3 world trade center buildings, despite the fact that wtc 1 and 2 survived the actual impact of the planes, and wtc 7 was not even hit by an airplane.

"but i think we're all forgetting something here, which is that the twin towers did survive the impacts [...] and they stood for a long time."  as it turns out, apparently we can all actually agree on this one:  the cat lady interview and the debunking that ensued was entirely irrelevant.  lets continue.

"the reason the towers collapsed was a mixture of damage from the impacts and the resulting fires which weakened the steel."  out of nowhere we land dead-center bullseye at the crux of the matter.  unfortunately, the presenter's previously apparent affinity for math and physics is absent here, as no formulas or explanations are offered for reconciling the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.  instead, nebulous claims and counterclaims ensue regarding the color of smoke.  unfortunately, this does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.

next, the presenter debates the cat lady on the finer points of office-fire-weakened steel.  unfortunately, this does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.

next, the cat lady receives a well-deserved respite as we move on to debate some other street-goers on the potential implications of bowing of the outer columns of the twin towers.  unfortunately, this does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.

next, we are reminded as we always are by "debunkers" that the fire-proof foam was likely to have been blown out by the impact of the planes.  unfortunately, this does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.

next, it is declared that some steel beams were likely to have been weakened, some possibly even collapsing, resulting in outer columns bowing and snapping, all culminating in... "and then the building collapsed."  we even get nice history-channel animations of beams sagging, trusses snapping, and outer columns bowing.  unfortunately, this does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.

next, we confront more street-goers about bowing outer columns at the impact sites and what this has to do with reconciling the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.  errr, sorry, i got a little ahead of myself there.  rather, we next confront more street-goers about bowing outer columns at the impact sites and what implications this might have on theories of controlled demolition.  finally, the presenter of this video seems to have struck a fatal blow to cat lady and her street-going compatriots, successfully ensnaring them in a question they arent quite sure how to respond to, causing them to stammer a bit and look rather foolish.  we even get a cute little popup text that reads, "They can't explain it or they change the question."  this coming from a video that seeks to ensnare a cat lady on the street corner and make her and other street-goers look stupid, instead of actually responding to any of the vast quantity of data and analysis offered by professional architects and engineers!  as cute as this is, though, it still unfortunately does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion.

next, the presenter poses the question, "what evidence do truthers have that these buildings came down by controlled demolition?"  hmm, this sounds like a potentially promising line of questioning.  my hopes for this presentation are once again slightly rekindled, albeit with strong reservations at this point.  the presenter then informs us that he has 3 hours of footage on this topic, but he is "only going to talk about a few things," because he is "only one guy."  i also look and see that there is less than 10 minutes left in this presentation.  of course we'll go ahead and assume he chose to present to us the most salient clips of the least wacky looking, best informed, and most articulate street-goers.   smiley

"Truthers say that an object at freefall would take around 10 seconds to fall from the height of the twin towers, and the fact that they fell in 10 seconds proves that demolition charges were blowing floors out beneath the point of collapse, allowing the buildings to fall at freefall.  This is already really easy to disprove.  Just look at the footage for yourself and time it.  It's well above 10 seconds, and in fact most of the footage even shows part of the lower portions of both towers, around 60 stories of wtc 1 and 40 stories of wtc 2, remain standing for up to 25 seconds after the initial collapse."  There are a few different things going on here, lets take them one at a time.

"Truthers say that an object at freefall would take around 10 seconds to fall from the height of the twin towers."  Sadly, my initial hypothesis that the presenter is a math and physics buff appears to be debunked by this statement.  It seems he is unfamiliar with the acceleration of gravity, and presents it as a conspiracy theory proffered by "truthers."  oh well, nobody is perfect, and i am more interested in addressing the information offered by the messenger than attacking the messenger.  so, lets continue.

"And the fact that they fell in 10 seconds proves that demolition charges were blowing floors out beneath the point of collapse, allowing the buildings to fall at freefall.  This is already really easy to disprove.  Just look at the footage for yourself and time it.  It's well above 10 seconds."  Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), simply declaring that black is white does not make it so.  We can easily find many official videos of the collapse of world trade center buildings 1, 2, and 7, and count for ourselves the amount of time the "collapse" sequences took.  While it is understandably clocked at not quite exactly the acceleration of gravity throughout the entire "collapse" sequence, we can see that the actual rate at which the destruction of all 3 wtc buildings occurs does indeed approach the acceleration of gravity.  Yet even if one insisted that black is white and the towers "collapsed" in 30 seconds, or 30 minutes, or 30 hours, this still does nothing to reconcile the gravitational collapse theory with newton's third law of motion!

"And in fact most of the footage even shows part of the lower portions of both towers, around 60 stories of wtc 1 and 40 stories of wtc 2, remain standing for up to 25 seconds after the initial collapse."  this is so pathetic i feel kind of bad even responding to it.  i mean, just look at what he is referring to: 



how embarrassing.  clearly when someone refers to the rate of a "collapse" sequence they are referring to...the rate of the actual "collapse" sequence, not how long it took some residual beam to fall over later.  i am beginning to wonder if this video is actually meant to be a parody on "debunkers."  alas, lets continue.

next, we get to view a rather lengthy exchange between the presenter and another street-goer about this residual beam.  the street-goer is unfamiliar with this beam.  a sad day for yet another street-goer.  bro, you are so debunked.  lets continue.

"Also, for some reason, truthers put in the whole height of the twin towers when they do their equations to work out that its going to take 10 seconds to fall at freefall.  Why don't they take it from where the point of collapse is?  I never really understood that."  Clearly there is a lot this guy doesnt understand, not the least of which being newton's third law of motion.  But first lets address the most ridiculous implication of this statement.  Keeping in mind that these buildings "collapsed" through the path of greatest resistance straight down into themselves, what do you expect to find by instead starting your measurement at the points of impact?  are you going to find that the section beneath the point of impact fell slower than the section above it?  an interesting day for physics that would be.  But lets move on to where this line of questioning really leads us.

newton's third law of motion states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  the gravitational collapse theory postulates that due to structural damage at the point of impact, the section of structure above the point of impact initiates a "collapse" sequence in which this upper section piledrives the entirety of the intact structure below it straight down to the ground through the path of most resistance, pulverizing it to dust at nearly the acceleration of gravity.  quite a day for physics that would be if that were indeed the case, regardless whether that happened at exactly the acceleration of gravity or a hair less.  of course the fact that the destruction of all 3 wtc buildings did indeed approach the acceleration of gravity makes this theory all the more absurd.  where could the extra energy come from that would be required for the smaller upper section to pulverize the much larger intact lower section through the path of most resistance straight into the ground?  newton is unquestionably rolling in his grave at such an obviously ridiculous theory.

this gravitational collapse theory and its implications is of course the crux of the issue regarding the collapse of the 3 wtc buildings, and is never actually addressed by any "debunking" material i have ever seen.  how could it be?  instead, of course, they at best try to focus the conversation on other details, or they pick out some ridiculous theories about lizard people or giant ray guns or something to "debunk," or at worst you get the sort of drivel offered by this presentation, in which a handful of street-goers are made to look goofy or foolish.  however, there is still a few minutes left in this presentation which may contain further enlightenment.  lets continue.

next, we are presented with a replay of the destruction of one of the towers, showing falling debris outside the perimeter of the building, positioned below the main point of "collapse."  it is declared that this clearly disproves the rate of "collapse" being close to the acceleration of gravity.  ironically however, the actual point of "collapse" never escapes the frame of this zoomed-in shot tracking this piece of debris, staying in nearly perfect sync with this piece of debris all the way down.

and of course next we ask some poor sap on the street corner what he thinks about this.  he isnt quite sure what to make of it.  bro, do you even truther?  yet another street-goer debunked.

next, we get to hear from a street-goer who fancies numerology and is sure that various numbers aligned that fateful day and created some vortex from another dimension which caused 9/11 and, or well, ya know, something along these lines.  no comment.

of course this video wouldnt feel properly complete without returning to home base and interviewing the cat lady one last time.  we discuss elevators and explosions with her for a bit.  according to her, the police and firemen that arrived heard explosions before the planes even hit the towers.  oh, cat lady.  you are really in for it now.  of course there were no responders present before anything actually happened.  cat lady debunked again!

well, all things considered, i must admit i am quite disappointed with this presentation.  of course, i am not only able and willing, but in fact quite eager to take any information someone links me to, digest it in its entirety, respond to the actual content contained therein, and offer my analysis of every last bit of it.  kram1032 and others, can you say the same?
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youhn
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2015, 06:52:15 PM »

I think is a huge movement getting stronger and stronger, spreading semi thrust and non information. The real conspiracy is feeding the surfaced theories, in order to cover up the deeper conspiracy (The Conspiracy). The moment you think you know that you begin to understand what is really going on, that is the moment they have got you. I have to generalize these underground organisations, because speaking out loud - or worse - writing down the name is like saying Allah is gay among ISIS. Those guys are also caught up by the bigger plan They have steered towards. Blowing up buildings and people is just the beginning. It's like counting to six about six times, which lead to the Sixth Extinction soon. Carefully crafted industries slowly but surely changing the mighty metabolism of mother earth. Gravity will pull things further when the moon lines up with the next coming solar eclipse, causing the edges of the crust of the earth to shift and crumble. Huge masses of CO2 and H2S will escape from the underground for some 10s of thousands of years. They have been plotting this for centuries, even before they landed on planet Earth in our dimension. They only look human because their 3D projection is all we see. Like an iceberg the bigger part is hidden. Their existence stretches in the upper dimensions from our earth to far beyond the centre of the multiverse. The only thing I keep failing to understand is the following. The huge scale difference in both time and space between us and Them. I mean, as they tap power straight from the purest form of hate and evil, they are more powerfull then Zeus, Powerman, Apple, OPEC, Kim, Elvis and the whole gang of Roman gods (and those bastards god-human fluffs that followed) combined. Outliving multiple universe like a child popping soap bubbles ... why even bothering with those awesome dude humans living as almost invisible dots on their tiny rock, on a timeframe that would be a blink of an eye for Them? I don't get it. I thinks I need some religion or stuff. Preferably in a small group of other true truthseekers. I mean, there must be an easy way out of this messy organic agglomeration of matter. This escape has not showed itself yet, but the way forward is clear to see. We need some scientists, poets, shamans and hard workers. Also some fast runners and highly attractive bitches to draw the attention of the unwilling and ignorant. Most importantly, we need YOU. It's totally OK for the runners to lose both legs, hell we would even decapitate them in order to set an example for the shamans to stay the fluff away from those horny bitches. Please don't cut yourself, we need every working living cell you can provide. Understandably, it will be a shame if all those clones walk around will fresh cuts they can't remember. Don't swim in the sea with sharks, keep away from dogs and cats and learn to smear with a spoon. BUT DO NOT BEND IT just yet, timing is everything. ( ... walks away to check dinner). Now is the time to prepare for the moment, which will happened Soon. The sun will tell, if you can only get your woman to offer your son. She will understand, as my good friend gave her a clear vision after the came (you know, while you were away for that day). Anyway, there are still some important points left to save our bubble in the multiverse. Be sure to check in next time. Other place, other time. I must now run. Dinner. Laterz!  A Beer Cup
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 06:59:30 PM by youhn, Reason: IT\'S EVEN WORSE THAN I THOUGHT. THEY HAVE CHANGED THE CONTENT OF MY TEXT. CANNOT EVEN DO SOMETHING, as in : \"You can\'t report your own post to the moderator, that doesn\'t make sense! \" » Logged
youhn
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2015, 07:02:32 PM »

Just saying I NEVER wrote "fluffs", "fluff" or "awesome dude". This would of course be a bit weird in this context.  police
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Chillheimer
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2015, 07:06:58 PM »

Continuing would almost be trolling, so this will be my last message in this topic.
@youhn: so, you've met the big brother! the mighty computer overlords....  I suggest you be nice to them! wink
I'm no friend of censorship myself, but this is a forum for all ages with focus on art and science and we want to keep it "civilized"


@quaz0r, I have one question.
Let's just assume that all this is true.
not what youhn said  grin, but you and the videos you posted - that I haven't watched either, I'Ve had my share and too many hours spent with this years ago.
ok, so assumed this is true:
what do you suggest is the next step? what to do with that information?


« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 07:13:18 PM by Chillheimer » Logged

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quaz0r
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 01:17:25 AM »

youhn, it is just as i feared.  the rabbit hole goes way deeper than previously thought!  this changes everything.   grin

hey chillheimer, as far as a next step, such a "next step" would implicitly be in an official capacity, as there isnt much beyond shouting from your soapbox that the average schlub can really accomplish.  the architects and engineers group calls for a new investigation, as the first "investigation" did not involve much investigating.  in fact, what was actually done following the events of 9/11 was illegal.  instead of preserving the crime scene for investigation, the crime scene was destroyed as they immediately began shipping off all the rubble.  they also refused to investigate the possibility of explosives, which is mandated by National Fire Protection Association’s Guide For Fire And Explosion Investigations, NFPA 921.

i would think though that the first logical next step before a new investigation would actually be launched would be for anyone to answer the architects and engineers' call for peer review of both the official story and their own analysis.

http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/affiliate-marketing-program/890-ae911truth-reaches-out-to-philosophers-and-engineers.html

From the article:  "Coste pointed out that members of the scientific, engineering, and academic communities normally rely on peer review — which is now understood as meaning oversight by and accountability to qualified members of a relevant field — to enhance the quality, integrity, and credibility of a product. Absent peer review, he said, it is possible for errors and omissions to be incorporated into a report or study. Ever since its inception in 2006, AE911Truth has been calling for a peer review of the official accounts of 9/11, as well as of its own scientific theory of what happened to the three demolished World Trade Center buildings."

while it might be cute and funny for joe schmoe to head down to the street corner and try to make other schlubs standing there with a 911 sign look goofy, apparently it is much more difficult for real professionals to conduct real peer review, as over the last 14 years nobody is answering this call to peer review of either the official account or that of the architects and engineers group.
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2015, 01:32:36 AM »

I love this!!!! I come to a fractal forum and 9/11 follows me here too !!!! cheesy cheesy

I've safely skipped reading any of the posts since each of us will believe what we WANT to believe on this topic, since the alternative means a complete breakdown of everything that we have believed for the bulk of our lives.


On my part i think the truth got figured out in steps somewhere between 2004 - 2008. Since then its a matter of time before the info reaches everybody. Between the collective works of Prof Steven Jones of BYU, Dr Neils Harrit of Copenhagen Uni & the journalist Chris Bollyn everything has more or less been cracked. Of course for each ounce of truth there exists at least a metric tonne of misinfo so good luck to all of us on reaching a consensus...
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Tglad
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2015, 12:39:12 PM »

Can one of the moderators PLEASE halt this thread.
Putting in the non-fractal related does not mean carte blanche for tired conspiracy theories that are actually quite disrespectful to those who were affected by it.
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Chillheimer
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2015, 12:48:20 PM »

I'm not a friend of too much  police

how about we just stop posting here and stop bringing it into view... (i'm really tired of it as well)
but in the end it's christians decision
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2015, 12:56:25 PM »

we thought this would decline itself, censoring is a bit of problematic here, i am going to lock this thread because of the non fractal nature of it ....


* THREAD LOCKED * BECAUSE OF NON FRACTAL NATURE *

it might stay, but it is possible that it is going to removed at anytime!
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Sockratease
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2015, 10:49:01 PM »

* THREAD LOCKED * BECAUSE OF NON FRACTAL NATURE *

This may be abuse of power as a moderator (only Mods can post in a locked thread), but just because there is a way to close it out nicely by bringing the topic back to fractals, while not losing sight of the subject at hand, here is a tribute to the fallen on September 11th, 2001, done many years ago in Chaoscope and titled "World Trade Center"  (It's been in my Gallery here for a long time too).



This post can be deleted if it is offensive.
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