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Author Topic: Navigation fog problems  (Read 1931 times)
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chaos_crystal
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« on: February 12, 2013, 05:54:13 PM »

Since I am still on an old Windows XP, 32-bit, my efforts in MB 3D and any other resource-hungry software will probably never be anything very good. I know that I can do much more than what I've already produced, since I have the motivation and (hopefully) the intelligence...

Anyway, my most recent issue has been with the Navigator fog feature. Basically, whenever I try to zoom in really close on an interesting scene that obviously has cool areas that would turn up even more cool details...the fog grows thicker until I feel like I am piloting a small aircraft that is about to crash blindly into a cliff simply b/c I can't see! LOL- I've tried using the tips given by folks such as the awesome Mr. Tenny  cheesy but nothing seems to help very much... Anyone else have this problem?

Therefore, what few images i have managed to turn out look as though they are seen from a distance...I can't get in there and really poke around...

thanks
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Jesse
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 06:58:25 PM »

You could increase the farplane (F2 in the navi) to get more distant objects back...
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chaos_crystal
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 10:03:40 PM »

I set the far plane number as high as 5,000 (that's probably way too high to get any result) and the FOVy on 1, but the image is still too misty looking to get really close in without losing it altogether. I also have Ambient Fog and other fog options turned off. Didn't help. What about post-processing, is there any setting in there that might clear up the murkies?
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 10:14:57 PM »

I set the far plane number as high as 5,000 ... and the FOVy on 1

listen to jesse and hit f2 and leave fov on default
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Madman
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 10:50:18 PM »

If you have all the fog options turned off, you should have no fog issues... Could you post a set of parameters where you have this problem?

Edit: Unless you are not looking at fog, but at the background, in which case Jesse's option is still your best bet (or any other way of increasing the far plane. I never knew about the F2 key, so I might start using that  cheesy)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 10:53:57 PM by Madman » Logged

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chaos_crystal
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 12:49:35 AM »

If you have all the fog options turned off, you should have no fog issues... Could you post a set of parameters where you have this problem?

Yes, I most certainly will...be glad to...I'll just use the default image for now, when I do.

Edit: Unless you are not looking at fog, but at the background, in which case Jesse's option is still your best bet (or any other way of increasing the far plane. I never knew about the F2 key, so I might start using that

LOL! grin Even little dummy Me, I knew about the F1 and F2 keys down in the lower left hand corner... I think HalTenny told me about that recently. I've also been watching Don Whitaker's Youtube tutorials, and on one of the "beginner" tuts he was saying that the fog he was seeing on zooming might have been caused by "getting too close" to something he couldn't see. Whatever that means. Too much for my brain! I must just be missing something, somewhere.

EDIT:  OK, before this in fixed zoom & steps (about 2531), I was beginning to notice a little bit of mist. But when I got to this setting (3581) the image was really breaking up although some places are still clear enough. What's happened to the background? If I zoom in closer than this, the whole image is gone... Here are the params for the '3581' zoom:

Mandelbulb3Dv18{
b.....S....O/...w....2....kvC5fFLi5yzqdOhyJCDEujsJM2gLbnaw9QoxKfZa7xzQrpvOt.rVzj
................................5Q1HkQpyf02........A./..................y.2...wD
...Uz.....E9..../M.0/.....k5/...h.....E3.....w79SCfSIHfD/..........m/dkpXm1....U
z.....kD12../..........wz..................................u1....y1...sD...../..
.z1...sD.GrkQvcfou1OvsnVpwmSy8t57amHanbjDI0jHNeZ1uXKtK/BHzmdyEDNKaUdV2fDEWryVmp3
Nt9/JoObEXHgyugxwSerfReD......Yd..............sD.6....sD..E.....................
.............oAnAt1...sD....z.29v4.sggP..qmi/.W9v4.kigP.Uxmi/..Av4......7....k1.
..................kz.wzzz1.U..6.P....U5...EB....m....c3....F....6/...I1.....SF52
...U.qFG9yzb2zzzRYoWzz7lz16.pc..zXCc..kvrEtMc7xD4ocyFE0ujz1..........2.28.kFrA0.
.Ub96aAIVz9.1se7Umvxz0........../EU0.wzzz1...........s/...................E.2c..
zzzz.............0...................2./8.kzzzD............8....................
/EU0.wzzz1...................................2CcN/UvNPcveeWCNq0.yRiibHJJUk1f..XR
SvBmx3CcN/UvNPcvQsLsUa3.ibhVi1bTV1OK.sSq4uCly3CcN/UvNPcvMwLsUa3.ibhVinqTV1OK.sSq
4uCkz3CcN/UvNPcv..EsUa3feeWCNqGQIJ36wk8EwyLsUa3f................................
E....2....E..........6....EGiFLNbJaQU.pPrJaQ.........................c..........
...................6./........zj................................................
................................................................................
........................}
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:06:40 AM by chaos_crystal » Logged

I conceived and developed a new geometry of nature and implemented its use in a number of diverse fields. It describes many of the irregular and fragmented patterns around us, and leads to full-fledged theories, by identifying a family of shapes I call fractals.

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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 08:06:24 PM »

I think I know what's going wrong. You should uncheck "fixed zoom and steps" and use the "walk" buttons instead to zoom in. The zoom button doesn't zoom in the conventional way (ask Jesse for the details about that). I don't use "fixed zoom and steps" much, except when I'm stuck somewhere inside a fractal and I can't get out  grin. And even then, I use zoom only to go to reasonable values (~100) and then use steps to get out. Depending on the speed, you can increase the stepsize to get out faster. Hope this helps
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 08:38:48 PM »

If I zoom in closer than this, the whole image is gone... Here are the params for the '3581' zoom:

Dunno what's up here, BUT after holding down F2 half a second nothing ever will go and not even a suspicion of fog remains. Setting zoom manually to 1, 10 or any other reasonable value makes it zoom smoothly as butter and close as a kiss...

Mandelbulb3Dv18{
d.....S....O/...w....2....EnsXezMtCrzi1lc8LLDlxjoT8hALBUmy1WS4Pmf4Rtz2bD4IkTPnxj
................................ug42.w89f02........A./..................y.2...wD
...Uz6.....1..../M.0/.....Um....P/....E3.....6VONEmsmJfD/..........m/dkpXm1....U
z.....kD12../..........wz.................................U0.....y1...sD...../..
.z1...sD1/mszreLnuXAsFd6abVcyyGhHB/bqhbD6ZPqG0GaFuvMPW84lxYZyyAG/KfywEfDbpvl3Ex9
UuvwbUs.l1egyCltaFXqGidj......o3..............sD.6....sD..E.....................
.............oAnAt1...sD....zw1.........................................C....k1.
.....i53iz1.......kz.wzzz1.U..6.P....U5...EB....m....c3....F....6/...I1.....SF52
...U.qFG9yzb2zzzRYoWzz7lz16.pc..zXCc..kvrEtMc7xD5ocyFE0ujz1..........2.28.kFrA0.
.Ub96aAIVz9.1se7Umvxz0........../EU0.wzzz1...........s/...................E.2c..
zzzz.............0...................2./8.kzzzD............8....................
/EU0.wzzz1...................................2CcN/UvNPcveeWCNq0.yRiibHJJUk1f..XR
SvBmx3CcN/UvNPcvQsLsUa3.ibhVi1bTV1OK.sSq4uCly3CcN/UvNPcvMwLsUa3.ibhVinqTV1OK.sSq
4uCkz3CcN/UvNPcv..EsUa3feeWCNqGQIJ36wk8EwyLsUa3f................................
E....2....E..........6....EGiFLNbJaQU.pPrJaQ.........................c..........
...................6./........zj................................................
................................................................................
........................}
{Titel: Mandelbulb3D*}

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Jesse
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 09:11:28 PM »

EDIT:  OK, before this in fixed zoom & steps (about 2531), I was beginning to notice a little bit of mist. But when I got to this setting (3581) the image was really breaking up although some places are still clear enough. What's happened to the background? If I zoom in closer than this, the whole image is gone...

Thank you for the params, i will fix it!

Of course you would normally come not to these parameters when using the navi the right way  wink
nevertheless it should here zoom out again, no question.

But having these samples it is quite easy to improve that, ty  A Beer Cup
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chaos_crystal
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 05:04:32 AM »

You are most welcome  happy and it's a consolation to me to know that my problem can be resolved! I've been having similar issues for ages but never had a way to fix it...how frustrating...and embarrassing too!
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chaos_crystal
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2013, 05:12:41 AM »

I think I know what's going wrong. You should uncheck "fixed zoom and steps" and use the "walk" buttons instead to zoom in. The zoom button doesn't zoom in the conventional way (ask Jesse for the details about that). I don't use "fixed zoom and steps" much, except when I'm stuck somewhere inside a fractal and I can't get out  grin. And even then, I use zoom only to go to reasonable values (~100) and then use steps to get out. Depending on the speed, you can increase the stepsize to get out faster. Hope this helps

Yeah...okay...I've been advised elsewhere to keep fixed zoom and steps checked. When I did, the numbers jumped over large values like 50 or so instead of little numbers that gradually take you into a zoom. And there aren't any options to fix that!  MMKay, I'll use the walk buttons for the gradual increase like I would much prefer...and hope the scene won't fog up on me again...

Umm...it's really slow...since my XP hasn't got a lot of memory and so it goes only at a fraction of the speed it should. I might have to use fixed zoom & steps some times! But that's when the fog moves in... Well, we shall see what Jesse tells us.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 05:24:13 AM by chaos_crystal » Logged

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PhotoComix
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2013, 12:42:33 PM »

Quote
Yeah...okay...I've been advised elsewhere to keep fixed zoom and steps checked.

 That is what i always do and for me works well


Quote
When I did, the numbers jumped over large values like 50 or so instead of little numbers that gradually take you into a zoom. And there aren't any options to fix that!  MMKay, I'll use the walk buttons for the gradual increase like I would much prefer...and hope the scene won't fog up on me again...

look well in the Nav you may increase the value how much you want ,...maybe you got 50 because you was tweaking  somebody parameters and he uses 50, but you may use 1 (that should be the default )

and BTW

Quote
Since I am still on an old Windows XP, 32-bit, my efforts in MB 3D and any other resource-hungry software will probably never be anything very good. I know that I can do much more than what I've already produced, since I have the motivation and (hopefully) the intelligence...

Old xp 32bit with 2GB ram is perfect for M3D !, nothing will work better :

actually there is not any 64bit version for M3D so a 64bit system with a lot of RAM will not do any difference ,... except to allow you to run better other programs simultaneously but for M3D itself will be no any improvements

Till few days ago i was doing all my fractal on a very old xp desktop,alas now is dead and i have to use a 7 laptop with 8GB ram that has exactly same speed to process M3D fractals

I would even suggest if you plan to change computer with a more modern and powerful to not dump in the trash the old but to remove from there all programs and services not strictly needed for graphic (starting from internet browser, then not using internet you will not need antivirus, firewall, skype,...) :
a old 32 bit computer with only 2GB ram, but stripped of all unnecessary programs/services and used only for M3D may work even better of a modern powerful one  with all the usual services switched on

This at least now, things may change in case of a future 64bit build of M3D

« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 12:50:15 PM by PhotoComix » Logged
chaos_crystal
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 12:10:32 AM »

WOW! That makes me feel a lot better, knowing that my old XP isn't hopeless for MB3D after all! dancing banana

What is even worse than the slow rendering time is how the preview draw takes forever in the main window, and how the navigation window breaks up in pixelation all the time, till I'm dizzy trying to keep track of where I am, on an image! Could be due to the fact that this old XP is used for everything, not just 3D proggies. Could also be due to the fact that I need to do some maintenance, such as sfc scannow (with an XP disc) and the .net framework fix, which I'm told might help speed things up in here... My computer expert brother will be visiting in a few days and promised to help me with these tasks (I am hardware illiterate, I'm afraid), so we shall see if that helps!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 12:59:59 AM by chaos_crystal » Logged

I conceived and developed a new geometry of nature and implemented its use in a number of diverse fields. It describes many of the irregular and fragmented patterns around us, and leads to full-fledged theories, by identifying a family of shapes I call fractals.

— Benoit Mandelbrot
chaos_crystal
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 01:03:54 AM »

Quote
taurus66 says:  Dunno what's up here, BUT after holding down F2 half a second nothing ever will go and not even a suspicion of fog remains. Setting zoom manually to 1, 10 or any other reasonable value makes it zoom smoothly as butter and close as a kiss...

Interesting! Could be my computer? Not likely, but at this stage nothing would surprise me...

I have run across a mandelbulb-amazing box combo which does not seem to have a foggy problem. I suspect this sometimes depends on the formula... I will try your params, though, taurus66!...compare yours with what I had...see if I spot anything amiss on my side...
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2013, 12:16:18 PM »

taurus66!...compare yours with what I had...see if I spot anything amiss on my side...


mine are made out of yours. Possible, that different versions make the difference. I have the latest beta 1.8.6
Just went through step by step.
  • Open navigator, hitting F2 once really makes fractal disappear. hitting the second time makes it re-appear. holding it down just a short while makes it fog free, but still not navigatable
  • Main window > Position > Zoom > manual setting to 10. applying to navigator (inserting parameter) makes it zoom super smooth

as far as I can see you can also do the second point first, without changing results significantly. the params below are made like this.
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