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Author Topic: Some point-cloud examples  (Read 1731 times)
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thargor6
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2017, 01:59:28 AM »

Mandelbulber program (not Mandelbulb3D) already uses floating point distance data when 3D mesh is being exported. There is not needed intermediate step of exporting voxel stack.
Mandelbulb3D also creates meshes and point-clouds without the intermediate step of generating voxel stacks.
3D objects are saved in OBJ or PLY format, which can be loaded in Meshlab, too.
Voxel stack stuff is still included for backward-compatibility.

Cheers!
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thargor6
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2017, 02:03:25 AM »

Mandelbulber program (not Mandelbulb3D) already uses floating point distance data when 3D mesh is being exported. There is not needed intermediate step of exporting voxel stack.
Mandelbulb3D also creates meshes and point-clouds without the intermediate step of generating voxel stacks.
3D objects are saved in OBJ or PLY format, which can be loaded in Meshlab, too.
Voxel stack stuff is still included for backward-compatibility.

Cheers!
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Buddhi
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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2017, 07:31:57 AM »

Sorry for my ignorance. For what is this this discussion about using voxel stacks when mesh objects can be created directly? What is the reason to use voxel stacks?
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thargor6
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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2017, 12:40:35 PM »

Sorry for my ignorance. For what is this this discussion about using voxel stacks when mesh objects can be created directly? What is the reason to use voxel stacks?
There is not much reason, except you have some super-cool external tool, which can do some more "magic", which outperforms the standard Marching Cubes algorithm.
Even size (due to 32bit application) is not a reason, as you may generate the meshes in parts (and finally merge them using a tool, which is supplied in the Mandelbulb3d distribution). The largest mesh I created so far had 170 000 000 polygons.

And I did not start a discussion about voxel stacks, I just posted some examples from the direct mesh export :-)

But, no problem! cheesy

Cheers!  A Beer Cup
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Mrz00m
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 12:09:53 PM »

Buddhi, It's awesome to have videos of complex apps. I just tried to render a menger at 400x400 and the result was 40x40 resolution, so it was zoomed to only 10%, so it's a complex app i need a video or a starter guide of some screenshots of the options and processes smiley I was very familiar with the previous version and my pc is only 8 threads, i just copy online presets mostly to travel the mandelworlds!!!

Thargor, here is a test of a sphere in version 1.99. the screenshot at the end with semi aliasing. The marching cubes isn't actually using the MB3D fractal formula. It is using a black/white version of it which has lost the gradient of the 3D, The oblique angles arelimited at 45 degrees. marching cubes takes so long because it nearly never has a vertex on an integer position = aliased, the corners of the cube are averaged to find the cube polygon, the vertices always measure the min and max of every cube corner and average the polygon in between at cool angles. To optimize that in MB3D every formula value pt of the cube corners should be computed one time and kept in an array and recalled 8 corners per cube. You probably are calling 8 corners per cube and adding them for the current version, but the input of the 8 corners are not actually the formula in 3d space.

On the right is what the MB3D output of a sphere would look like if the the marching cubes input was the formula equation output, i.e. If you do xx+yy+zz = 1.0. currently it is using true/false of (xx+yy+zz = 1.0)

Try running your marching cubes in MB3D with xx+yy+zz = sphere radius perhaps to debug it, because it should make a perfect sphere first time, which means it is getting 8x times too few samples per cube from the rest of the program.


On the left is the data that MB3D is sending into the marching cubes code. the input of the marching cubes can directly be the result of xx+yy+zz = 1.0, that's how it performs best.


* MC 1.jpg (29.32 KB, 927x392 - viewed 15 times.)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 06:13:51 PM by Mrz00m » Logged
Buddhi
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 09:23:11 PM »

So in Mandelbulber it uses fractal formula directly in marching cubes algorithm. Results are much better. See attached images of sphere exported to 30x30x30 mesh. There is no aliasing.
It already has this optimization which you mentioned. Every of 8 points from cube is calculated only one and stored in temporary array (only 2 consecutive slices with distance data are stored in memory). It makes calculation of mesh almost 8 times faster.


* sphere shaded.png (94.85 KB, 874x803 - viewed 13 times.)

* sphere wireframe.jpg (97.44 KB, 812x773 - viewed 14 times.)
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Mrz00m
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2017, 11:01:00 AM »

>>>>>>>>> .STL FILE >>>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2633265 <<<<<<<<

Very nice render. I'm trying to find a bounding box for your mesh, to resize and move the mesh preview?

The Ideal fractal programs already exist for 2D art galleries, it's 10/10 for both programs.

For Meshes... it might be worth writing a new 3D program from scratch, because once you have previewed your formulaic effigies in the 2D fractal program, It's best to piss it out as many compressed and uncompressed file types/ stacks/mesh/cloud because those formulas variables/lightings aren't changing that mesh afterwards... but there are many hi res fractal mesh editing/adding/substracting/things that people will want to do... Maybe, at this time, it would make sense to have a seperate .binary.exe project to both your programs, which can communicate with them, with "Send object to fractal mesh editor" (effigy is a cool name oui? it's an atomic pacific island).

We need 2GB isomap/imagestack arrays going out of the 2D program and into a 3D program, which doesn't need the formulas editing of the 2D, and which can take a bust and boolean map fractals as a light relief onto it, fully chop a fractal in the shape of a vase by boolean also, fill surface holes of cheese fractals, hollow them, and other difficult 3D tasks that someone will want to do on full mandelbulb 3D imagestacks one day, like vector mutation and morphing, different color mapping and colorizing options(vertex/pixel/material), and so forth.

I was pretty good with mandelbulber 1 and i was compiling it for pc. I don't know enough about both programs to know the specialization of both, the differences. 3D fractals has become alot about preset libraries and remixes on web pages. Web is the best distribution for a photo and embedded preset code/file/magnet.

Taking advantage on the 50000 online mb3d presets would be a good advantage for all mandelbulb programs, to copy over MB3D's copy/paste codes. I know it's controversial because the file format has a mb3d header, but lack of cooperation between all fractallers in their math travels would be detrimental... not so to integrate, it, just to add it on the side as another option.


If we dream what would be the best 3d fractal program, It would preview a rotatable object representing the fractal slab, similar to MeshLab rotating.

Someone will do that by 2050:) so i can print myself some fractal false teeth.

in realtime preview, mb3d currently has a fixed box, It's got a swiss army knife meshing page, the number of options is amazing, even though he wrote it all without a marching cubes programmer noticing why his mesh was aliased, and he added Taubin Smooth, which sounds like a urban eel species. Mb3d mesh window is fantastic, and it's not rotatable or hi res or optimized, so in the dream version it is... If I had enough experience and concentration to re-code it, i would do a mesh preview cube which is ray-march detected from the camera rotations uploaded every second into the graphics card as minecraft voxel maps, because we all know the retro attraction of voxel 3D graphics. Minecraft voxels are just much more fun and physical than point cloud maps of quads used by MeshLab for 3D preview.

HD 3D Mesh colors are a quandary/difficult. When the PC is powerful enough to oversample them and color printing arrives everywhere, because colors on 3D mesh requires incredible amounts of intelligence just to do version using per vertex/polygon color arrays, and using material files, the technical adversity of colors is massive in terms of formats and realtime rendering. formats optimize mesh colors in very difficult ways.




* iron tortoise.jpg (161.2 KB, 834x663 - viewed 11 times.)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:07:28 PM by Mrz00m » Logged
thargor6
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« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2017, 12:02:55 AM »

mb3d currently has a fixed box, It's got a swiss army knife meshing page, the number of options is amazing, even though he wrote it all without a marching cubes programmer noticing why his mesh was aliased,
While it may be an interesting topic, it kinda gets annoying that you do not stop to hijack this initially art-focused thread with your very opinionated statements.

Suggestion: start your own thread about meshing, marching cubes or whatever and share your thoughts, suggestions, in a constructive way. Blindly asuming things is not a good way to start a discussion.

Or even better: grab the code and improve it! It is open source! Talking is good, but doing is even better ;-)

and he added Taubin Smooth, which sounds like a urban eel species.
So what do you want to say exactly?
 - Taubin Smooth is bad?
 - The implementation of Taubin Smooth is bad?
 - It is bad that MB3D has an optional Taubin Smooth option?
 - MB3D is bad?
 - Mankind is bad because they did not prevent that Taubin Smooth was invented?
 - Smoothing is bad, even as optional feature?
 - anything? cheesy

Cheers!

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thargor6
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« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2017, 12:34:47 AM »

Thargor, here is a test of a sphere in version 1.99. the screenshot at the end with semi aliasing. The marching cubes isn't actually using the MB3D fractal formula. It is using a black/white version
I'm not sure why do you tell me this? Maybe you think I did not notice it, or suddenly forgot about it, even when I told it to you via email? ;-)
In fact, the problem is well known, which does not automatically mean, that there is somebody who solves it ;-)

But you are invited: grab the source and contribute to it! In MB3D there are nearly no excuses, the code quality can hardly get worse ;-)

Cheers!

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Mrz00m
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« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2017, 05:57:14 PM »

Hi, I did look for a guide how to compile MB3D on windows7, I don't know which programs and libraries I need for it? I would be happy to dive into it for a while.

The DE of the BTracer window is essential to find why we can't display/save a color image from BTracer rather than black/white, because DE uses the decimal value of the formula to find the edge, the version that the DE is using in that window is the original formula. Perhaps I can write a single Echo() command from the DE to trace the mixup. I want to write the actual DE values in 8/16 pics, and then I can write a mesh program with very optimized mesh writing from it.

 I wrote a 3D mesh optimizing code for sending architecture fractals to a 3D printer, this is a 2gb file optimized to 92mb:

https://i.imgur.com/tqsUQk3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ES3zgZ0.jpg


« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:58:15 PM by Mrz00m » Logged
Buddhi
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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2017, 08:38:17 PM »

Returning to the main topic of this thread, this is my trial of rendering mesh objects in Blender. The object was exported from Mandelbulber to PLY file with 6 millions faces. The object was optimized in MeshLab using Quadric Edge Collapse Decimation filter to reduce number of faces to 1 milion.
In Blender there was used Cycles Render with Subsurface Scattering effect.



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Mrz00m
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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2017, 04:42:20 AM »

Yes sorry Thargor no offence, was humor. The BTracer window is so awesome I'm full of praise for it... And there are options to save a mesh bounding box. incredible. I used your program to process 2 terabytes of point clouds and I programmed a couple of months of clouds because it was fun.

From a Digital Signal Processing point of view, what I said about Taubin, in the current DSP sequence, is similar to changing a color photo black and white, and afterwards running a gaussian blur to recover the bit depth. The DE has more than 6 decimal places, so the result of the DE comparison is 16bit 0.000001+ vertex resolution between any 2 samples. At least I did some detective work on the MC results, It's difficult 3D process to notice.

For the comments about presets, my 8 core 24gb pc is slower than what you have at home, so I do what other normal people do, just surf for preset remix groups with hi-res images and program presets. I spend 80% of the time on 3D fractal program using the zoom of the mesh render window. That's my opinion. I didn't manage to render anything like this thread when I tried. the pc jammed. so I wrote a program based on image stacks. I will try to copy what you are doing, perhaps it takes 32 threads and 64GB. I do know how to optimize DE-iso engines quite a lot so they go 10x faster to generate a fractal mesh, and 0.000001 vertex precision.







* 2017-11-11_045650.jpg (88.37 KB, 1131x610 - viewed 3 times.)

* 2017-11-11_045348.jpg (108.83 KB, 1307x497 - viewed 14 times.)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 05:06:36 AM by Mrz00m » Logged
Mrz00m
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2017, 10:04:05 AM »





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thargor6
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2017, 07:59:47 PM »

From a Digital Signal Processing point of view, what I said about Taubin, in the current DSP sequence, is similar to changing a color photo black and white, and afterwards running a gaussian blur to recover the bit depth.
OK, I see. But, this was not the purpose. Like in image processing, blur/smoothing can sometimes be an useful feature, but it is optional and has nothing to do with the meshing itself.
In general, I think the MC is not the best idea to create meshes from fractals. But, creating more advanced stuff, takes effort and time.
But, maybe it is a good idea to optimize the MC first, when this can be achieved quickly.

Peace!

Andreas
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Mrz00m
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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2017, 06:54:02 PM »

I can run GPU marching cubes on high res image stacks afterwards, which can render a a billion cubes in about 10 seconds, it's 100 times faster than the processor. I alreadhy have a free GPU marching cubes code running on my PC, only task is give it some high res image stacks to run on. It's one of the advantages of saving high res image stacks using 8/16bit pixel depth. 

I'm checking the project for keywords relative to the meshing options. It's quite a steep program to learn pascal!
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