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Author Topic: Rolling around a different axis...  (Read 2507 times)
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JodyVL
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« on: June 26, 2011, 07:49:21 PM »

It's me again! ... So I've been having a great time since realising that through combining different formulae, results can be extraordinary.

While navigating my new found formulas combos, I've often wished to be able to "roll" the image up/down, or to the sides. At the moment it can only roll the x/y plane around the z-axis. Jesse, any way you could implement rolling the x/z plane around the y axis, and the y/z plane around the x axis? cheesy ... Would be nice.
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Madman
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, 08:42:09 PM »

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but you can turn the bulb around every axis with the arrow keys in the main window. In the navigator it's somewhat more difficult and you will need to combine sliding, rolling and zooming. Changing the default numbers (down arrow in the navigator window) can help you in moving faster or more accurately. If you're stuck, checking "fixed zoom and steps" can help, but don't forget to uncheck it afterwards... Hope this helps
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lenord
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2011, 09:27:13 PM »

Madman's right, you can turn these things every which way but loose in the main window, including by fractions of degrees.
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JodyVL
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2011, 11:23:07 PM »

Aha, forgot all about those buttons down there in the main window! Thank you. But still, wouldn't it be nice if we could rotate it "live" like that in the Navigator? You know... Keeping all the navigating functions in one place.

And maybe you guys could help me out with this: I'm writing a tutorial for beginners for M3D (via my blog), but not sure how to explain the "sliding" buttons. "Looking", I've said, is like turning your head left or right, literally "looking around at" the fractal. But what does sliding do? It seems to me it's almost like sidestepping one direction and looking (just a little) in the opposite direction. (in fact I'll use this in my blog for now until someone gives me a better definition smiley )

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lenord
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2011, 12:55:46 AM »

Looking is actually Sliding the image across or up and down the screen, the deeper the zoom there is also a slight rotation of  the scene in the direction of movement.  
Sliding is more like "looking" as there is a shift in focus due to rotation and the image moves across the screen with the rotation from side to side and up and down.

One thing you might want to mention early on in the tut is that unlike most all other 3D apps like, Maya, Terragen, Daz products, Poser, MoJoworld etc. The Camera NEVER moves, the object you are looking at is Moved around in front of the Camera. Once that is set in your mind the rest pretty much makes sense.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 01:14:11 AM by lenord » Logged
JodyVL
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2011, 02:31:45 AM »

Quote
Looking is actually Sliding the image across or up and down the screen, the deeper the zoom there is also a slight rotation of  the scene in the direction of movement.

Hmm.. Excuse my audacity lenord (I'm still such a newbie), but I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this? ... Because I set the looking angle to 90 degrees, and then zoomed into an appropriate area on the Mandelbulb and looked left and right, to test it out. This is what I got :



So yeah, it really looks to me like in the case of Looking, the camera angle actually changes(?)

I still don't quite get Sliding, though I'm using it with more ease now. Combining looking and sliding helps to rotate the 'bulb whichever way I like (with intermittent shifting to get the image back in front of me,, using the mouse(clicking on the screen once and moving it)).
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lenord
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2011, 03:12:06 AM »

It will only do it that way when you are way zommed out looking at a complete Bulb/Box. On deep zooms, way inside it will not react that way so it's an incorrect assumption to say it will act that way in all circumstances. There are situations on Deep Zooms where I've seen the  Looking and Sliding functions switch appearent Operations even. How much Sliding(rotation) and Looking(Shifting) are directly tied to Ammount of Zoom, overall orientation of the Bulb/Box, Zmid and Zend, everything is interactive when moving a Bulb/Box around.
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lenord
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2011, 03:15:03 AM »

Quote
Looking is actually Sliding the image across or up and down the screen, the deeper the zoom there is also a slight rotation of  the scene in the direction of movement.

Hmm.. Excuse my audacity lenord (I'm still such a newbie), but I'm pretty sure you're wrong about this? ... Because I set the looking angle to 90 degrees, and then zoomed into an appropriate area on the Mandelbulb and looked left and right, to test it out. This is what I got :



So yeah, it really looks to me like in the case of Looking, the camera angle actually changes(?)

I still don't quite get Sliding, though I'm using it with more ease now. Combining looking and sliding helps to rotate the 'bulb whichever way I like (with intermittent shifting to get the image back in front of me,, using the mouse(clicking on the screen once and moving it)).
You haven't looked left or right, you have shifted the image from zero and shifted/slid it right or left by 90 degrees
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lenord
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2011, 03:39:36 AM »

OK, I'm confusing myself now, I generally never use the Nav until I'm zoomed quite a bit to start with. If you take an Abox, center it in the nav, then play with Looking and Sliding, Looking is rotation by the amount entered, sliding shifts position by the amount entered. When you get zoomed in(200-2000 whatever) things change differently, sliding has a more rotational effect and looking has more of a positional effect, yeah...that works for me anyway.
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JodyVL
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2011, 02:21:29 PM »

I see smiley ... Ok awesome, thank you for mentioning this. A Beer Cup I'll play around a bit more, try different things at different zooms, and advise further in another blogpost entitled "More about navigation".
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Madman
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2011, 07:36:20 PM »

Just a small comment to confuse the issue even more smiley. If you navigate with the buttons in the main menu, you'll rotate the bulb. Leftclick turns around the middle of the viewport, while rightclick turns around the absolute axes (Hover over the buttons to get this info. Hovering is actually a very good way to find out more about buttons and dials in M3D).

However in the navigator, you do change the camera. Looking is indeed what it says: you keep the same position and move your head up/down/left/right. You can easily check this by selecting a value of 180 and click twice on the same button: you'll be where you started. Sliding keeps your eyes locked in position, but you're sidestepping (or moving up or down). Walking is the again, what it says, you can walk into the fractal or step back. This can also be achieved in the main window by a combination of Zmin and Zoom, but that's a lot less intuitive.

But... (of course, there's always a snag...): The navigator behaves a bit erratically, if you're partially in the fractal. A tell tale of such a circumstance is when the main window and the navigator show completely different pictures, or if the main window show even green area's with a sharp border. An easy way around this, is cutting the fractal on the right axis (which would be the axis perpendicular to your monitor).

I've never noticed lenord's experience at high zooms (everything keeps working as it should), but I think that len usually uses high FOV's so that may be connected to it.
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JodyVL
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2011, 11:05:37 PM »

So I thanked you already in the other thread but here's another: Thanks! : A Beer Cup

This really really helps. So now for my inevitable questions:

About the erratic behaviour when you're partially inside the bulb: I've found that sometimes if I've walked in quite far, when I try and walk out (especially when using the mouse-wheel instead of the w/s buttons) the zoom actually increases. Why/how?? You can see this demonstrated on your side by looking for any little hole in the 'bulb to dive down, and try climb out of it again  tongue stuck out
Also, when using the mouse wheel, when the pointer is not near the center of the navigator screen, the entire bulb rotates sometimes, especially when walking out.
Oh and, you know when you click on the screen, the pointer disappears, and you can move the image around? What is that doing exactly? I often think I know but then something different happens.

Lastly, two short but powerful questions. What is cutting, and what is FOV?  grin .. I will try things on my own later (busy with blog right now) but a spoon-fed answer is always nice tongue stuck out

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lenord
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 12:09:46 AM »

FoVy is Field of View on the Y-axis(Camera View angle)....Cutting is actually Cutting the entire Bulb/Box along the specified axis by the amount of the number entered

As for the erratic behavior of the nav in some situations Jesse would be the one to get a real explanation from, I chalk it up to difference in formulas, some have analytical DEs some are fixed, a hybrid containing both mess the Nav up some. It's just something you know happens and when it does you're used to it. Usually I toggle to or from Fixed zoom, take a couple steps forward and back, sometimes that syncs things back up, if it doesn't I reinsert params and start again. Personally I never use the Scrool Zoom, too easy to get off track of where you want to go. I manually enter zoom values quite frequently, it's easy to overshoot a spot but you can back up in the nav. I usually get close to where I want to be before opening the Nav at all, use the nav to get the scene set I'm looking for then go back to main for fine rotations since you can do fractions of a degree using the main rotate arrorws.


Flying by mouse in the Nav in MB3D seems to work almost just like Flying in MojoWorld, you fly in the direction the mouse is moved, except MoJo gives ya a crosshair to let you where you're going.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:16:52 AM by lenord » Logged
lenord
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 12:35:34 AM »

Just as a note the earliest versions of MB3D didn't have a Nav Panel, navigation was done soley by the Zoom/select Zoom button, the Shift XY button and the Rotation arrows in the main window. I still use that method to get close before ever opening the Nav Panel.
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kameelian
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2011, 07:29:16 PM »

Hi folks,

well I just want to add my two pence worth on this.

I rarely used the direction arrows on the main window at first as (d'oh! it took me days to discover) you don't instantly lose what you have into a 'sunset' or something as soon as you press them - you have to re-render again - which was confusing as the navi window was 'instant' - even if it is not always clear where you are going. [[I wonder if a simple wireframe-style thing might help to see where we are and it would use less processor power and be 'instant' too?]].

Anyway, to add more confusion, I too have had the Sliding and Looking kind of reverse roles on me too. Sometimes, they work how you'd expect and other times they work however they feel. (it is sometimes a matter of whether you are moving Your Head, the Object or the Window around it) and I have definitely had it where, the closer in I go with Walking, it comes back at me as if I am pressing the lower button. Sometimes I cannot pull out again at all.

Sometimes, I could do without the structure getting a bulbous, bowing distortion as I use these buttons to rotate around it (which I assume would not happen if using the direction controls in the Main window?). And, yeah, sometimes the Navi bears NO resemblence whatsoever to whatever is in the Main window.

I figure that if I can't master these simple buttons after nearly 2 months, there is something inconsistent about them - the only other answer is I'm more demented than I thougt I was.

Still engrossing fun tho innit.

Kam
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