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Question: Poll: Would you support a Kickstarter project to recode Mandelbulb3D iinto something like C  (Voting closed: February 11, 2017, 06:25:12 AM)
Yes - 4 (80%)
Yes - 1 (20%)
Total Voters: 5

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Author Topic: Mandelbulb3D recode to into something like C: Kickstarter  (Read 1559 times)
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1Bryan1
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« on: January 28, 2017, 06:25:12 AM »

This poll has one and only one option: Yes
This is because the point of this poll is to see what support the proposal below has.



Mandelbulb3D is currently a 32 bit Delphi application, which will sooner than later become unsupported.
I really enjoy using Mandelbulb3D and fear that it will sunset before it's usefulness comes to an end.

To expect the fractal forums community, to come to it's rescue in terms to brute force coding is something I fell is unlikely.

However, there are people who for, a fee, will spend  the effort  required to get this task done.
The main blocking point is money - this could be overcome by crowd funding (e.g. Kickstarter).

If you are willing to contribute your hard earned cash to a Kickstarter project whose sole purpose is to recode Mandelbulb3D into a more supported language (like 64bit C) - vote Yes
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DarkBeam
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 12:11:20 PM »

Not to be discouraging; this project would be simply impossible or very close to impossible sad
Why don't simply start a new similar raymarcher similar to Fragmentarium but using 64 bits in C, that simulates MB3d without being identical?
And even if I deeply love that proggy. And huge respect to Jesse. Honestly it has become outdated and too limited with his hardcoded stuff. There are some new awesome projects out there with realistic mindblowing effects (the magical knighty cloudy shader) and kali's xray.
Also the code is intrinsecally "rigid" and full of limits that could never be removed (assembly everywhere). Great for speed and I love speed. But is everyone really happy with that???
Modestly I am constantly trying to bring new content and I constantly hit limits ...even for "simple" formulas it is really hard to port them - like say a normal Perlin noise.
Do a flexible raytracer do not resurrect MB again... look at the future smiley
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 12:19:38 PM by DarkBeam » Logged

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Sockratease
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 12:22:17 PM »

With respect to Darkbeam's position, I am not sure I agree 100%.

The hardcoded bits help performance, but are invisible to the end user.

What the end user sees is an interface and the results they get from the program.

And, for me, no other 3D Fractal Generator even comes close to MB3D's interface and way of getting results!  I get around the program and have a lot of fun with minimal or no difficulty.

With literally every other program of it's type, I find myself spending more time figuring out how to do what I want to do than actually doing anything.

I have never once gotten an image I liked from any other Mandelbulb renderer.  And in some cases I never even got an image at all!

Obviously, this is a shortcoming on my part.  I admit that!

But regardless of fault, I get what I consider to be great results from MB3D and would love to see it updated!  Jesse didn't make the code available so we could give it a decent funeral.  I think he'd approve of this.

That said - I can't vote in the poll since I am so broke I can barely afford most of the essentials lately.  So I support this project in every way except financial   afro

That said - who accepts such commissions?  And what sort of support do they offer for bug fixes, new feature requests, and that sort of thing?  Or would the code be public?  If so, do the people you pay expect to retain any rights to the finished product?

A lot of tricky stuff like that needs to be addressed...
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DarkBeam
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 12:36:40 PM »

I agree in the ease of use - In fact I meant that creating a "similar" program the programmer can (and should) preserve the look and interface; the code should be just ... new to allow new extensions impossible now. A Beer Cup
In every case any extension of mb3d would make necessary a new m3f format with all the annoying consequences!!!
As for the closed source hmm... Should not be allowed if you keep mb open source code as a base.
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1Bryan1
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 11:12:59 PM »

The goal of the Kickstarter project would be to provide funds for a phased recode by people other than myself (I do not have the skills for something like this).
The whole idea is keep preserve the features of Mandelbulb3D by having them rewritten into a language that has a large following (e.g. C) and allow people to play with the internals to make those features even more awesome at a later stage.

If there is sufficient interest, my next step to would be to essentially put the recode out for expression of interest for an Agile rewrite.
Freelance programmers can then give their input into what they personally can deliver and how much they would charge to produce something of value.
Note: 'something of value' does not mean that they need to rewrite the whole thing - just provide something that works,  is of value (meets expectation) and can be incrementally improved on.

Regarding questions of ownership of the source code:
The rewrite source code will be open-source, public, free and allowed for inclusion of any other free unrestricted application.

Regarding bugs:
For the paid recode work - there will be a warranty period where Freelancers will be expected to support their work.

Regarding new features:
Out of scope for the rewrite - new technology that preserves the features is fine, new features are noise and not wanted for the rewrite.
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thargor6
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 12:36:34 PM »

I think there is actually no need for this. When I maintained the MB3D project, many people said "Thanks for what you are doing, but I do not need it, I'm just pleased with the version as it works". It was a little surprise, but I accepted it, and now I even agree. It works good as it is for most of the users.

Cheers!
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Sockratease
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 01:19:16 PM »

I think there is actually no need for this. When I maintained the MB3D project, many people said "Thanks for what you are doing, but I do not need it, I'm just pleased with the version as it works". It was a little surprise, but I accepted it, and now I even agree. It works good as it is for most of the users.

Cheers!

While I have great respect for all the work you did and love the improvements you introduced, I have to disagree that there is no need for a 64 bit version.

Even if no other changes are made (actually - Especially if no other changes are made!), that one thing should be enough to justify the effort.

At least in my view.
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3dickulus
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 11:21:30 PM »

Many things have changed since Mandelbulb3D was originally conceived. I think a better idea would be to take the best features from the top 3 or 4 fractal programs and bring them together with fresh code based on the current (and future) state of hardware, software, programming and interfaces, rather than trying to patch and fudge pascal into another language.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a bad idea but I also think that it won't bring the desired result. There is pascal to C translating softwares, why not crunch it with that and then clean up the generated code? well, because it's not a straight over conversion, would have to be done in pieces and would take some effort to make it all work. Not to mention the logistics when more than 2 or 3 people get involved.

There is also only one incentive for investment and that is the love of fractals, that's why I put time into Fragmentarium, no other reason.
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 01:35:24 AM »

There is also only one incentive for investment and that is the love of fractals.
I deeply agree, and I see here the main problem: "to recode the app in C" is just a huge bunch of work, but not an interesting work at all. To create the same program again needs a lot of dedication because it lacks challenge, and in case of MB3D the expectations are infinite.

Regarding the pascal-to-C-translation: the worst problem is that major parts of the code are in assembler, not pascal.


Cheers!
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lycium
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 03:54:49 AM »

I attack this problem indirectly from a different angle, since many years: teaching as many people who will listen about ray tracing.

In my opinion the problem isn't really one of C/C++ versus other languages, for example something like C# would be great. GLSL / Fragmentarium is something of a dead end for various long-winded technical reasons, Patryk Kizny bumped into them long ago.

If there is some kind of bounty on the problem (with clear feature requirements) it would most certainly attract my attention, and I'm sure several other people as well.
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1Bryan1
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 05:47:14 AM »

I think there is actually no need for this. When I maintained the MB3D project, many people said "Thanks for what you are doing, but I do not need it, I'm just pleased with the version as it works". It was a little surprise, but I accepted it, and now I even agree. It works good as it is for most of the users.

Cheers!
Indeed it does work  well.
As long as 32 bit applications are supported, it will continue to work.

However, in it's current state, any bright ideas for improvements reply on a very limited pool of people.
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1Bryan1
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2017, 05:54:05 AM »

I deeply agree, and I see here the main problem: "to recode the app in C" is just a huge bunch of work, but not an interesting work at all. To create the same program again needs a lot of dedication because it lacks challenge, and in case of MB3D the expectations are infinite.

Regarding the pascal-to-C-translation: the worst problem is that major parts of the code are in assembler, not pascal.


Cheers!

I deal with offshore resources (e.g. India) and have been involved in some crowd-sourcing projects where people are paid based on being better/faster at the task than others (i.e. only those that get their first get paid).
It is startling how much effort those people will put in ... just for the possibility of a small reward.
It doesn't put them off that it is tedious.
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3dickulus
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2017, 06:46:09 AM »

Regarding the pascal-to-C-translation: the worst problem is that major parts of the code are in assembler, not pascal.
yes, not a straight over conversion, would have to be done in pieces and would take some effort to make it all work. I actually tried converting some of it but quickly realized what a huge task it would be.

GLSL / Fragmentarium is something of a dead end for various long-winded technical reasons, Patryk Kizny bumped into them long ago.
PK (I think) was looking for something other than a program to explore math and fractals with.

If there is some kind of bounty on the problem (with clear feature requirements) it would most certainly attract my attention, and I'm sure several other people as well.
Name your bounty, how much would it take to get you seriously interested? That could set the kickstarter minimum goal wink
Feature requirement? convert to a more widely used language. C,C++,C#

I deal with offshore resources (e.g. India) and have been involved in some crowd-sourcing projects where people are paid based on being better/faster at the task than others (i.e. only those that get their first get paid).
It is startling how much effort those people will put in ... just for the possibility of a small reward.
It doesn't put them off that it is tedious.
I understand the idea and have no doubt that it works, but it will still require benefactors (investors require a return, benefactors don't) that are willing to support the effort for the love of fractals.
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1Bryan1
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2017, 09:50:18 AM »

I understand the idea and have no doubt that it works, but it will still require benefactors (investors require a return, benefactors don't) that are willing to support the effort for the love of fractals.
That is the magic of Kickstarter - there are no investors, just people interested in financially helping an concept to become reality.
There is  a requirement for a pledge to be rewarded, but the definition of reward is very broad.
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Sabine
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2017, 11:58:16 AM »

As simple user I love and adore MB3D.
Where this program really shines are its stability, abilities for realistic colouring and lighting and its absolutely brilliant intuitive UI (have yet to see a better one).

But I also see its drawbacks: as the program is now, deficient memory-use, cpu-only, inaccessible code and as soon as 32-bits support is gone it'll be dead.

As far as my wishes go, all I really want is a black box with the same UI and the same or better outcome  cheesy
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