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Author Topic: M3D navigation and objects positioning  (Read 3031 times)
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Sfumato
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« on: July 19, 2011, 06:57:24 PM »

Dear friends, I am going on with my newbie questions if You don't mind:
To be more specific I'm posting the parameters (koch_cube and Menger3):
 I get lost in M3D navigation. The question concerns the main window. Since sometimes '3D Navi' doesn't show me the picture and I can't rotate objects in it, I use main window for object 'manipulation' frequently.

Mandelbulb3Dv17{
P....cS...Uu/...w....22...EnAnAnAng6.rAnAnAnA90Ep8cgzRVNVyXIcawFrNmcz...........
......................................UOc12........Y./..................y.2.....
................/Mk./....6E12...O/....E2.....ANZ0HZ.XRbD/..........c./...w1....U
z.EnAnQD32../2.........wz..................................2.....y1...sD...../..
.wHnAnYDTZVf3138ixXX1OorJ.2Ez2H7OjzzKoqjvwLAkAcDFx1kjsyvM1pQzESkJFOqempDorRT77.3
gxXnT5dPeb1MzOZOiffgLfqD......YP..............kD.2....sD..kz0...................
.............................UTRG9.Yq7h.cQbo0.wRG9.Ks7h.kXbo0UMSG9..............
.....................wzzz5.U..6.N....E1....A....z....c3...EF....z....gn2...UMVxX
...U.iow1xDuLMnzyLcqz1E6r/6E.c..jsMp.6UkKZMxkayjPMNs1siD2.ApVHxXfidhz...Q.EuAw3.
U1Dbqxm4ozHCR8Zc4xRkzgtfSDC481.E..V0.Q.yM0UpfjrwdvgqzKo.Tci/2UyD...........Ek21.
pLz..gWncfuYR0.EiUNAT2kYszPfdJjmatvhz006Exjy8.2.z0cXcESLfz1lGZwV7TN..XWpMTxUhc/k
/6U0.wzzz1....................................6EU.......zz/6FG1.tANU.szD/PX5..gS
q/EzTNie31kzE0A.Qs5U./0.......bT.026.......ly/6EU.......Mw5U./0......kqT.026....
...kz/6EU..........U./0.zz/6FG1.yzHkqs/.xzZteKA.................................
E....6....E.....I....Y....kOjB4OTBKRWJ4..IaQ.................................MU/
4.........UNaNaNaNaxz.........zD........kz1.....................................
................................................................................
.....................2.....3....8....oINiRKNmB1.................................
.....MU/4MU/4................U.E........kz1........wz.........zD................
................................................................................
................................}

Leaving the Zstart, Zmid and Zend parameters I change Zoom from 50'000 to 500'000. As far as I understand the object should have become closer\larger, but nothing of that kind: But nothing changes - ? What is more I guessed Zmid was the distance to the object center but I was wrong. Changing Zstart and Zend while leaving Zmid the same changes the zoom!
I will be grateful if You explain me the positioning "ideology" of M3D or give a link to read.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 04:16:34 PM by Sfumato » Logged
DarkBeam
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2011, 07:55:05 PM »

Never change manually those things. use main win controls to chose the position and the 3d navi to zoom in. once you zoom deep use only the navi smiley
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Sfumato
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2011, 12:10:42 AM »

Thank You, DarkBeam!
You see, sometimes I have to shange Zstart since the object becomes 'sliced' and I don't see it after I altered some parameters. The second reason is rotation (as I described in my first post) - I can't rotate it around X or Y axis in Navi (without moving its own center\axis).
For instance I need to change some formula parameters, to zoom in and to rotate the object in the next keyframe but I want it to move directly to me. Don't know how to implement it!
Thank You in advice,
with kindest regards,
Sfumato.
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taurus
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2011, 01:14:41 PM »

Never change manually those things. use main win controls to chose the position and the 3d navi to zoom in. once you zoom deep use only the navi smiley

doubtable.
the navi provides no control over the depth and as a result the fog appearance. so at least the z-end sometimes needs to be modified manually!
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Jesse
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2011, 08:45:14 PM »

doubtable.
the navi provides no control over the depth and as a result the fog appearance. so at least the z-end sometimes needs to be modified manually!


The 'Depth' is on the lighting tab, just adjust it one time and then you have no bother about it anymore.

The Zend value is set automatically in the Navi by the Farplane parameter and that gives you a deeper view or not, just press F1+F2 to set the farplane easily.

I will through these x,y,z sometimes all over board  Azn
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Sfumato
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2011, 09:49:37 PM »

Thank You. taurus and Jesse. Will follow Your advice,
Looking forward impatiently for Your explanation, Jesse!
With kindest regards,
Sfumato.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 12:04:50 AM by Sfumato » Logged
Jesse
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 10:58:48 PM »

Just as said: for zooming use the navi, you can sidestep and changing the viewdirection to go around a bulb.

For rotating the whole bulb at its origin axis, use the arrow keys with rightclick to rotate on the bulbs axis, or leftclick to rotate at axis relative to the current view and around the mid-points Xmid, Ymid, Zmid.

For more special questions i would need an ani-file or something.
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Sfumato
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 03:53:41 PM »

Thank You, Jesse. Sorry, Your instructions don't seem to work in my case (the parameters enclosed): I can't rotate the bulb 1 degree with either clicks as it disappears.
And it is still not clear how to work with '3D Navi'. In the case below I have a scene on main window and can't see it in both modes:
with 'Fixed zoom & steps' checked and unchecked.

Here is the example I mentioned:
Mandelbulb3Dv17{
P.....m....K0...w.....2...UlLUlVrf5xzekYwwQAnA1EBMAcsc8soznBshX4RiLwzmjmwAUOzMjj
........................................I.2........Y./..................y.2.....
................/Q.0/....6kj/...00...2kb.....M8bjMjLw3oD/Q...............w1....U
z.UaNadD/.../2.w1cqH2jnpzMMlfpC2zTyDHmShqvFitz9...........E......y1...sD...../..
.wXaNadDiYLnUt7cazXEEZ7NS0etzYQqa51I78mjKRGNct7cazvEEZ7NS0etz...WiG1VXJDMaO9c9iB
Ow1mQ0auWPX4zU2bVezzzzyD......Yt/...D/........kD/2....sD.AE.0...................
.............................UTR4I.YqNE/cQb/3.wR4I.KsNE/kXb/3UMS4I..............
.....................wzzz5k7.U4.V....61...EC....s1...g4....D....9/...I1....a5X3I
...UxB/vpxzuf4sz9kZOzzzz466..c..snEB.osRBv4SdZzDaFBqwnQahz1............/8..7hT..
KjySnbinOz94hE2Jv5G0.1...........AV0.gDa2.E15T51vojwz2D8YqFpt/zD...........Ekckz
pLz...CwQOr9PEzDdKFcRtBvvzHdmeZpwzPpz0F68sjy8.2.5Got8VlJqy9skndRjg/pze89U4O1b.xj
/6U0.wzzz1....................................6U..kzzj7.QY/QU0D.IAZi.wn8z16E.szr
Z0kPxwjuT0Uwtr..5sIW161.pL4Z.UDKLyzZ.wnal.EJZpf6H0.z0jC.7zaiFvD.qEXR.kqTU1....Dw
k1.kz/C....wk1D....E..2.zz/y5c/.yz1.s0..xz3xoD/..24Ph/mEVtKSjt4617LNZh49U6oPm7LN
E....E....E.....I....Q....EHZtqNZ7LG4B3.rJaQ..............................U/4M..
..........UNaNaNaNazz.........zD........kz1........sz...........................
................................................................................
.....................2.....3....6....w3Jm3aPnlKMoJqEoE4.........................
..........................................UaNaNaNaNyz...........................
.....cNaNaNaNazD................................................................
.....................................wzzzzD......wqQB3aQoZaP....................
.................2E.4MU/................kz1........sz........UyD........kz1.....
...wz...........................................................................
..........................................U0....I.........UEZtKNnZqAExqRm.......
.............................MU/4....................................IKnB52.....
...wz...........................................................................
........................................................}

Instead of asking fragmental question I'll try to ask for a more or less comprehensive explanation on navigation in Mandelbulb 3D. Hope that it would  be usefull not only for me.
I'll describe a common problem I face in >90% situations I try to navigate in\out\around an object:
The initial scene\keyframe is rendered in main window. I need a second keyframe and switch to '3D navi'. In case I can see the same picture (geometry, not lights and colours of course), I start moving: sliding or zooming or whatsoever. Very soon I notice my scene cut partially or vanishing 'in fog'. Increasing 'Far plane' doesn't often help. So I send the result ('View to main') to main window and inevitably have to 'play' with z parameters (Zstart, Zmid, Zend) since very often zoom doesn't help either. But increasing say Zstart or Zmid leads to zoom changes. I have to go back to '3D navi' and the situation reapeats. As a result hours are wasted, to say nothing of frustration.
At first I thought Z parameters defined Depth of Field and Zmid defined the position of the object center. But practice proved I was wrong. Trying to study the coordinates system I started writing out and fixing the parameters (Zstart, Zmid, Zend and zoom) to analyze them and their results. Nevertheless I haven't succeeded yet.
I can't understand what has fixed position (concerning\relative to Z-parameters): camera or object\scene center (sometimes it seems camera is fixed in other cases object seems to stay where it had been before changing parameters, in other situations they seem to 'behave' independently) - ? Perhaps I don't understand something but imho fixing the DOF for each series of keyframes would be great: Say one can assign a fixed distance to a bulb portion\slice and the depth of field (Zend) so that neither of them change until the parameters are reset manually.
Is there a way to fix one of them (camera or object) in order to provide smooth  navigation and to make it possible to assign angles and coordinates for keyframes, thus one could plan the path of the camera\object beforehand?
The interface of most very different 3D applications ( be it either XSI, or Bryce, or Lightwave, or Rhyno) allows one to have a full control over the situation. If M3D has a more complicated or comprehensive system a kind of explanation in plain English will be great!
Thank You very much in advance,
have a lovely weekend,
Sfumato.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 04:15:38 PM by Sfumato » Logged
Sfumato
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 04:18:46 PM »

And one more question I still can't understand in '3D navi': what is the difference between 'Sending out'\Zoom and 'Walking'\(w)&(s)?
Thank You,
Sfumato.
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Jesse
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 11:59:28 PM »

You should also have a look at the bubble helps that will popup if the cursor is over them for some seconds, on most of the edit fields and buttons available.
In 3d you can't zoom in like in 2d, you always have to navigate towards the object.
'Zoom' relates in M3D to the size of the camera viewplane, just setting it higher will not change much at some point because you do not move or change the FOV.   You can set it higher if parts of the object at the imageborder are cutted, but that is all for the use of it.

In later versions i quit the viewplane fully, that will ease up things and make the behaviour more common.
Something like a 'nearplane' will be added instead.

And for animations with zooms i would always stay with the navigator and also the first keyframe i would send from the navi to main or directly to the animation maker.
Because the navi has already a little different way of treating all the values, the zoom is made from the local distance estimate, and the farplane is also a factor of it.  If distant objects are vanishing you can push the farplane very high, rendering slows not that much down like in very early program versions.
Of course, the distance estimate could also be wrong, then you could manually setting the zoom lower with the fixed option.

But forget setting values for Zstart,mid or end or any others, even for me the effect is hard to consider.

hth
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Sfumato
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 11:56:05 PM »

Thank You, Jesse! I read the 'bulbs' but not always understand the meaning. That's why I asked for a kind of manual or HowTo...
With kindest regards,
Sfumato.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 07:56:13 PM by Sfumato » Logged
Sfumato
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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2011, 02:05:54 PM »

Dear friends, I think I'll go off nuts on Z parameters as fighting with them distracts from the main task: practically in >50% cases I navigate through\around an object\scene or change (even slightly) formula parameters (t. g. change 'Fold' by 0.02 in 'Amazing Box'), I have my object\scene cut - Zmid and Zstart become too close to each other. I've failed to find any way out in '3DNavi' and have to manually alter the Z params which leads to zoom and position change. Rather often I simply get lost and have to press undo several times or open previously saved parameters to go on. 
I am sure most of us had that problem ever. Is there a way to obviate the problem?
Thank You in advance, with kindest regards,
Have a lovely Sunday.
Sfumato.
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Madman
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2011, 09:33:59 PM »

Are you talking about making animations or making stills? In the latter case, I often use "Reset pos & Zoom" if I get lost and try again. If I'm still in the bulb after resetting, I increase Zstart to get out. If that still doesn't work around a Zstart of 1000, I give up and decide it's an incompatible set of formula's and /or parameters. If I'm out, I switch to the 3D navigator again and take it from there.

If you're trying to change parameters in an animation, it's a different ball game: If you take big steps, the bulb will move/change a lot in relation to your camera viewpoint which seems to get worse if the camera gets near a solid part of the fractal. The recipe here is making smaller changes in the parameters and uploading them in the navigator. If you make them small enough, you will see in what direction the bulb is moving or changing and you can compensate by using the sliding, walking and rolling buttons. And if 0.02 for the fold parameter is too big, try 0.01. Or 0.001. As soon as you get a feel for what is happening, you can often increase the steps.

If this is not the answer to your questions, please be more specific. Post the parameter file and tell us step by step what you do and where it goes wrong (FYI, the parameter file you uploaded in this post doesn't produce anything useful with me, not in the main window and not in the 3D navigator)
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Sfumato
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 12:28:56 PM »

Thank You, Madman, for Your attention and advice!
My question concerns both stills and animations.
The procedure You described is clear, as I explore fractals in similar way. Though it seems to be not very comfortable and rather time consuming (in comparison to other 3D programs). The fact is navigation and Z parameters is my 'pet peeve', I though perhaps I miss something that's why I've been 'wandering in the dark' all the time I explore Fractals with M3D. But now I see that not only me have to give up in some cases.
With kindest regards,
Sfumato.
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