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Author Topic: Keyframe selectability  (Read 2656 times)
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Boya
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« on: June 19, 2012, 02:13:41 PM »

Maybe something I´ve gotten wrong, but in trying to animate two parameters independently, I´ve run into complications:

If I`ve got a smooth camera motion going over a stretch, and want to animate parameters at specific keyframes in between, it would be nice if I could pinpoint the exact keyframe instead of just getting an 50/50 interpolation of the two. 

Example: in an 200 frames zoom, I´d like to animate Julia at frames 16 -39 -88- and 138 without breaking the smooth motion of the zoom.

- or might this be feature request?






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kameelian
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 11:05:33 PM »

Hi,

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're asking, but I'll offer a few thoughts and see if this is close.

when you say you want to animate at frames 16 -39 -88-and 138, I assume you don't mean ONLY on these frames but between these frames?
You can't really have 'animation' on single frames, so I'll assume you mean you want the parameters to change on these frames (which kind of fits
When you say "pinpoint the exact keyframe instead of just getting an 50/50 interpolation...").

Perhaps you have spotted that the keyframes do not really get into the animation? You will always get an influence of the adjacent keyframes
on each other; that's just how it works to get 'smooth motion'. However, if you try using Linear interpolation instead of Quadratic Bezier,
then you will get the actual keyframes into your animation rather than a "50/50 interpolation" between the two - even so, each keyframe will
still influence the adjacent ones - and the cost here is a less smooth transition between them. Is this what you mean?

Additionally, you can always check which frames are doing what (and at which point a change begins), by doing a 'preview' from the anim window and activate
'show frames number' in the preview window. Maybe this will get you closer the the frames you require and you might be able to adjust keyframes accordingly?

You could always add more frames between the frames you want to add julia and pause there for the changes to occur, but this way, the "smooth motion of the zoom"
will be interrupted.

hope this is of some help

regards
kam
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 11:09:27 PM by kameelian » Logged

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Sockratease
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 11:59:43 PM »

I suspect he wants a full featured "timeline" like in 3D animation software - which Jesse has already said is not likely to happen.

You could always make many "half-way" interpolated frames until you get where you want to be, then delete the extras.
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taurus
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 01:33:48 AM »

i think, i know what you mean - you want to save the parameter of a particular frame. i am not up to date with mb3d, but i know mandelbulber does it easiely, but you would have to abstain from all that neat hybrids...
but if you render from frame 88 to 88 in mb3d, wouldn't it keep the parameter to save after rendering is done? i can't tell. grin
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Boya
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 08:18:53 PM »

Hi all.
I´ve moved into the woods to properly dive into my M3D project, limited bandwidt here..

But thanks for your input, 
I´ll try to clarify:

@kameelian
Quote
when you say you want to animate at frames 16 -39 -88-and 138, I assume you don't mean ONLY on these frames but between these frames?
You can't really have 'animation' on single frames, so I'll assume you mean you want the parameters to change on these frames (which kind of fits
When you say "pinpoint the exact keyframe instead of just getting an 50/50 interpolation...").

You are right. I am not trying to animate one frame!
To keep it short: I´m animating to music, and I want to keep the riddim´

Quote
Perhaps you have spotted that the keyframes do not really get into the animation? You will always get an influence of the adjacent keyframes
on each other; that's just how it works to get 'smooth motion'. However, if you try using Linear interpolation instead of Quadratic Bezier,
then you will get the actual keyframes into your animation rather than a "50/50 interpolation" between the two - even so, each keyframe will
still influence the adjacent ones - and the cost here is a less smooth transition between them. Is this what you mean?

The 50/50 interpolation I´m talking about is the one you get when push the "Interpolate a new keyframe in between" in the animaton maker.


@Sockratease

Quote
I suspect he wants a full featured "timeline" like in 3D animation software - which Jesse has already said is not likely to happen.

You could always make many "half-way" interpolated frames until you get where you want to be, then delete the extras.

I´m not asking for a full feature keyframe editor, and I understand why Jesse does not want to make one... I´m trying to imagine the intereface though.)
I also tried to go the "half-way" but just trying to divide one second into tenths of seconds is impossible. With the 50/50 you always have to divide by two on each side of your latest inserted keyframe, thus getting 0.50 - 0.25 - 0.125 of a second
Anyway, I´m animating long runs, and this method just crashes my head.

@taurus66
Quote
i think, i know what you mean - you want to save the parameter of a particular frame. i am not up to date with mb3d, but i know mandelbulber does it easiely, but you would have to abstain from all that neat hybrids...
but if you render from frame 88 to 88 in mb3d, wouldn't it keep the parameter to save after rendering is done? i can't tell.

I might have gone with mandelbulber, had it still supported sound input!

SO,
I think this could be solved (quite) easy:
If I have keyframes 1 and 2 representing a nice camera motion, I´be getting what i want if I can ask the animator to enter a new keyframe a the specifc point, say 88, with the interpolated keyframe weighted for this specific value, thus keeping the motion.
This would create a greater control when animating without going for a full feature keyframe editor.

Cheers...


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Jesse
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 12:26:58 PM »

A linear interpolation with a weight between 0 and 1 would be no big problem.

Have in mind that with bezier interpolation the keyframes themselves are not reached in the animation. An added keyframe inbetween can have much influence up to the keyframes in front and behind.  Might be no problem though...
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Boya
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 06:08:04 PM »

So I´ll rephrase my question and move it into feature request, if OK with you Jesse:

Request:
The ability to add a weighted keyframe at at a specific frame in between two existing keyframes.

Example:

Keyframe A @ frame 1: Zoom:1
Keyframe B @ frame 200: Zoom: 6

New Keyframe X added @ frame 88
Results in linearly weighted zoom:2,64

Not trying to do your maths here...

In my opinion adding a new keyframe between existing should not add frames to the total number of frames, but place it self tween´

Thanks!
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taurus
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 08:37:54 PM »

...

New Keyframe X added @ frame 88
Results in linearly weighted zoom:2,64

...

when i get this right, your interpolated sub frame will contain different parameters than the one in animation, if it's set to bezier interpolation. so why not taking the subframe as set in animation? when rendered, the values of whatsoever frame is calculated anyhow so exporting them can't be so far away.
or did i miss something?  huh?
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Jesse
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 09:14:39 PM »

when i get this right, your interpolated sub frame will contain different parameters than the one in animation, if it's set to bezier interpolation. so why not taking the subframe as set in animation? when rendered, the values of whatsoever frame is calculated anyhow so exporting them can't be so far away.
or did i miss something?  huh?

It is not that easy, the parameters are very compact because it would be much work to make longer headers or a variable type...
so the parameters (especially for all the lighting) is first converted to more handy structs like single vectors for light direction as example,
and then interpolated.  Backwards changing to parameters are not that easy and/or inaccurate.

Anyways, also a bezier interpolated subframe would change the timeline at the neighbour keyframes.

Keyframe A @ frame 1: Zoom:1
Keyframe B @ frame 200: Zoom: 6
New Keyframe X added @ frame 88
Results in linearly weighted zoom:2,64

Of course parameters like zoom are scaled logarithmic before interpolation.
With linear interpolation only the two surrounding keyframes are used...
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Boya
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 11:10:40 PM »

Quote
when i get this right, your interpolated sub frame will contain different parameters than the one in animation, if it's set to bezier interpolation. so why not taking the subframe as set in animation? when rendered, the values of whatsoever frame is calculated anyhow so exporting them can't be so far away.
or did i miss something? 

After having made an animation, going back to control particular parameters at particular frames without messing up the existing time/motion is really hard with the current way if applying new keyframes in between existing ones.

The interpolated subframe should contain all parameters correctly weighted, so I can change the ones I want without breaking the ones I do not want to touch.
In this case: zoom 6(zoomsteps)/200(total frames)*88(new keyframe)=2,64

Jesse:
In trying to make an animation example, I find the Ipol button it does not interpolate the zoom 50/50 even with subframe interpolation set to linear:
I get 2.45 instead of the expected 3?




* Zoom test.m3a (62.77 KB - downloaded 116 times.)
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Jesse
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2012, 11:40:02 PM »

Jesse:
In trying to make an animation example, I find the Ipol button it does not interpolate the zoom 50/50 even with subframe interpolation set to linear:
I get 2.45 instead of the expected 3?


Because the zoom parameter is scaled logarithmic before interpolation, for example if you zoom from 1 to 1000 smoothly you would expect to zoom with a contsnat factor over time,  so you get a zoom of sqrt(1000) in the middle (~32 times to the middle and ~32 times til the end).

But zooming in 3d is dependend on the distance to the object, but this distance depends on the exact motion and the object detail, so it is always better to use the navi to go where you want and save this as a new keyframe inbetween!
Especially for zooming purpose!
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