Recatogorising the Forums?

[alan2here]

I prepose a reworking of the sections of the forums to

Proposal 2

Welcome to Fractal Forums
_Fractal Community
__Meet & Greet
__Discuss Fractal Forums
___Moderate Fractal Forums (Join us)
__Polls
__Non-Fractal related topics
__Fractal News across the world
__Other [FAQ, List of fractal artists and there websites, link to Deviantart's fractal section, etc...]
_Fractal Software
__UltraFractal
___Formula
____Mandelbrot
_____Julia
_____Close Variations
____Newton
_____Close Variations
____Nova
_____Close Variations
____Bansley 1, 2 and 3
_____Close Variations
____Phoenix
_____Close Variations
____Magnet
_____Close Variations
____Lambda
_____Close Variations
____Carr
___Colourings
____Inside Only
____Outside Only
____That Require the Formula Pixel
____Orbit Traps Based
____Slope or Emboss
____TIA
___Mappings
___Chalenges
__Apophysis
___Chalenges
__ElectricSheep
__Chaoscope
__Fractinit
___Needs somone who knows more about it to complete this list
__Chaospro
___Needs somone who knows more about it to complete this list
__Fractal eXtreme
___Mandelbrot
___Mandebrot Arbitrary and Complex Power
___Newton
___Complex Newton
___Nova
___AutoQuad
___Hidden Mandelbrot
___Barnsely 1, 2 and 3
___Sierpinskis Triangle, Four Recursive Circles and Apollonian Packed Circles
__Life32 or Mcell (Fractal related desscution only)
___Sierpinski triangle and Variations
__Fractal.org
___Julius Ruis
_Software Groups
__Quaternion
___Julia
___Mandelbrot
__Lindenmayer
__Natralistic
___Landscapes
__Sounds
_Fractals As Math
__Mandelbrot/Julia Type
___Mandelbrot
____Julia
___Newton
___Nova
___Bansley's
___Phoenix
___Magnet
___Lambda
__IFS
___Flame
__Strange Attractors
___2d
___3d
__Lindenmayer
__Sierpinski triangle
__Natralistic Fractals
___Landscapes
__Fractal Sounds
___Waveforms
___Midi
___Other
__Statistics, Measurements and Trends
__Chaos Theroy
___Bifurcation Theory
___Complex Analysis
___Brand New Theories
_Rate my
__Images
___Mandelbrot/Julia Type
___IFS
____Flame
___Strange Attractors
____2d
____3d
___Lindenmayer
___Natralistic Fractals
___Fractals in Nature (Photo's)
__Video
___Mandelbrot/Julia Type
___Strange Attractors
____2d
____3d
___IFS
____Flame
___Lindenmayer
___Fractals in Nature
___The Best Movies [Locked from most people adding stuff]
__Sounds/Music
___The Best Sounds [Locked from most people adding stuff]
_Other
__Other
__History
__Fractal Compression
___Audio Compression
___Data Compression
___Image Compression
___Movie Compression

Proposal 1

Welcome to Fractal Forums
_Fractal Community
__Meet & Greet
__Discuss Fractal Forums
___Moderate Fractal Forums (Join us)
__Polls
__Non-Fractal related topics
__Fractal News across the world
__Other [FAQ, List of fractal artists and there websites, link to Deviantart's fractal section, etc...]
_Fractals
__Mandelbrot/Julia etc... Type Fractals
___Mandelbrot
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Mandelbrot's Julia
_____Rate My Image
_____Rate My Movie
_____Math
____Close Variations
____Math
___Newton
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___Nova
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___Bansley's
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___Phoenix
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___Magnet
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___Lambda
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___AutoQuad and Hidden Mandelbrot
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Close Variations
____Math
___Other Spacific Fractals (List)
____Julius Ruis
_____Rate My Image
_____Rate My Movie
_____Close Variations
___Rate My Image
___Rate My Movie
___Math
___3d
____Quaternion
_____Rate My Image
_____Rate My Movie
_____Math
____Heightmaps
_____Rate My Image
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Math
__IFS
___Flame
____Rate my Image (as long as it's not made using ElectricSheep)
___Rate My Image
___Rate My Movie
___Math
__Strange Attractors
___2d
____Rate My Image
___3d
____Rate My Image
___Rate My Image
___Rate My Movie
___Math
__Sierpinski triangle
__Natralistic Fractals
___Landscapes
____Rate My Image
____Rate My Movie
____Math
___Math
__Fractals in Nature
___Rate my Photo
___Rate my Movie
__Movies
___Rate My Movie
___The Best Movies [Locked from most people adding stuff]
__Fractal Sounds
___Waveforms
____Rate my Sound
___Midi
____Rate my Sound
___Other
____Rate my Sound
__Fractal Software
___UltraFractal
____Formula
____Colourings
_____Inside Only
_____Outside Only
_____That Require the Formula Pixel
_____Orbit Traps Based
_____Slope or Emboss
_____TIA
____Mappings
___Apophysis
___ElectricSheep
___Chaoscope
___Fractinit
___Fractal.org
___Chaospro
___Fractal eXtreme
___Life32 or Mcell (Fractal related desscution only)
___Other Software Groups
____Quaternion
____3d mandlebrot type (other than Quaternion) [needs a better name]
____Natralistic
_____Landscapes
____Fractal Sounds
__Fractals as Art
__Fractals made using traditional media
___Rate My Image
___Rate My Animation
__Fractals as Math
___Statistics and Trends
___Chaos Theroy
____Bifurcation Theory
____Complex Analysis
____Brand New Theories
__History
__Fractal Compression
___Audio Compression
___Data Compression
___Image Compression
___Movie Compression

All "Rate My Image" Forums would need a read first stickied post explaning how to upload to imageshack.
All "Rate My Movie" Forums would need a read first stickied post explaning how to upload to google video and other free large file uploading websites.

I think it would be nice to link in places to pages of Wikipedia

Iv'e put most things on at least the second level because the first two don't have forums, they are just sections (like "Welcome to Fractal Forums" is) and categories (like "Fractal Community" is)

If thease changes where to take place among other things the thread http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=75.0 would be of no use anymore and not need to be transfered over.

[heneganj]

This looks a comprehensive change, and a good one.  I will consult with my fellow moderator.  In the meantime if anyone has any comments on this structure or would like to propose changes or alternatives please do!

[alan2here]

Thanks
Im really glad you like it

[Jules Ruis]

I would like to stay with the Julius Ruis set in the trits: Mandelbrot sets, Julia sets, Julius Ruis sets.

[heneganj]

From Matera:

Yes, it looks good. I did a little thinking and some adding and switching, leaving most of it intact. Gotta love cut&paste Smiley

It will take a little more thinking, I would think (lol). You know a lot more about some aspects of it than I do, I'm just an old art-hacker. Anyway, here's my outline:

_______________________
Welcome to Fractal Forums

_ Fractal Community
_ _ Meet & Greet
_ _ Discuss Fractal Forums
_ _ _ Moderate Fractal Forums (Join us)
_ _ Polls
_ _ Non-Fractal related topics
_ _ Fractal News across the world
_ _ Information
_ _ _ FAQ
_ _ _ Fractal links (informative)
_ _ _ Fractal links (galleries)


_ Fractals
_ _ Mandelbrot Type Fractals [needs a better name]
_ _ _ Mandelbrot
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Mandelbrot's Julia
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Newton
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Nova
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Bansley's
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Phoenix
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Magnet
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Lambda
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ Other Spacific Fractals
_ _ _ _ Julius Ruis
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ _ Close Variations
_ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ Math
_ _ _ 3d
_ _ _ _ Quaternion
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ _ Math
_ _ _ _ Heightmaps
_ _ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ _ Math

_ _ IFS
_ _ _ Flame
_ _ _ _ Rate my Image (as long as it's not made using ElectricSheep)
_ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ Math
_ _ Strange Attractors
_ _ _ 2d
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ 3d
_ _ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ Rate My Image
_ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ Math
_ _ Fractals in Nature
_ _ _ Rate my Photo
_ _ _ Rate my Movie
_ _ Movies
_ _ _ Rate My Movie
_ _ _ The Best Movies [Locked from most people adding stuff]

_ _ Fractal Sounds
_ _ _ Waveforms
_ _ _ _ Rate my Sound
_ _ _ Midi
_ _ _ _ Rate my Sound
_ _ _ Other
_ _ _ _ Rate my Sound

_ _ Fractal Software
_ _ _ UltraFractal
_ _ _ Apophysis
_ _ _ ElectricSheep
_ _ _ Chaoscope
_ _ _ Fractinit
_ _ _ Fractal.org
_ _ _ Chaospro
_ _ _ Fractal Explorer
_ _ _ Life32 or Mcell (Fractal related desscution only)
_ _ _ Other Software Groups
_ _ _ _ Quaternion
_ _ _ _ 3d mandlebrot type (other than Quaternion) [needs a better name]
_ _ _ _ Natralistic
_ _ _ _ _ Landscapes
_ _ _ _ Fractal Sounds

_ _ Fractals as Art
_ _ _ Patterns and Symmetry
_ _ _ Natralistic Fractals
_ _ _ _ Landscapes
_ _ _ _ Creatures
_ _ _ Post-processing
_ _ _ _ Software, techniques
_ _ _ _ Rate my Fractal
_ _ _ (possible general discussion of fractal esthetics?)

_ _ Fractals as Math
_ _ _ Statistics and Trends
_ _ _ Chaos Theroy
_ _ _ _ Bifurcation Theory
_ _ _ _ Complex Analysis
_ _ _ _ Brand New Theories
_ _ History (and biography)
_ _ Fractal Compression
_ _ _ Audio Compression
_ _ _ Data Compression
_ _ _ Image Compression
_ _ _ Movie Compression
_ _ _ Other practical applications

[alan2here]

I edited again

The "Mandelbrot/Julia etc... Type Fractals" will need a clarifation sticky explaning that this section is only for fractal geometery with a link to the fractal software section for people who want to descuss UltraFractal colourings\mappings etc... for those fractals.

I confess a lack a knolege about the "Chaos Theroy" Forum and It's subforums.
Also I know little about mac and linux spacific fractal software, although if there is good or widely used software then it should be added as a subforum to the apropreate place in the "Fractal Software" Forum.

About heneganj's comments on "Proposal 1"

I question the "Other practical applications" subforum of "Chaos Theroy" as the forum "Chaos Theroy" itself can be used to discuss things to do with chaos theroy not related to any of its subforums.

Your formatting is defenatly clearer however in order to be consistant there should be a linespace between thease two lines

_ _ _ Math
_ _ Strange Attractors

and thease two lines

_ _ _ Math
_ _ Fractals in Nature

and thease two lines

_ _ _ Rate my Movie
_ _ Movies

I think Natralistic Fractals needs a math discustion section and needs to be given its own catogery not just be inside of "Fractals as Art". It would be best to put it just after the strage atractors section as in my first post. I would also question the subforum "Creatures", although it is far more relevent if left in "Fractals as art".

What would fractal ethics discuss?

Tell me more about fractal post processing, also the rate my fractal subforum of it could be "rate my image" or "rate my movie" to clarify.

[Nahee_Enterprises]

Personally, I see possible problems when trying to list so many different kinds of fractals and fractal software as sub-groups.  There are way to many to make navigation easy or even finding what you are looking for, especially when it comes to the over 600 fractal programs available for download on the Internet.

If you really must list so many software programs, it would be better to have them in ascending alphabetical order.  You know how many programs actually begin with the letters "Fract" ??

And why do there even need to be so many separate groups for fractal software??  The majority of programs being used have one or more of their own discussion groups already.  It would seem that just a single group about fractal software would suffice when people here wished to know something.  If they really wanted to have all of the details about a certain application, they could get more useful information, and a lot more of it from the already established Users Groups that exist for those products.
 

[alan2here]

Im not gona list everything, only the good ones, Iv'e probbebly listed all the ones worth listing now. Most people use Ultra Fractal and most equations are disighned to work with UltraFractal, however we dont want to alianate people who use other software.

The list is hierarchical, and one of the first dicisions people make is to go into software spacific descution or into genral disscution. It would be easyer to make it all software spacific and make the genral only for matmatical discution, but I was trying to avoid doing that. Even forumi that go between programs have difrent implementations as fractal programs are capable of doing diffrent things. It would be choas (in a bad way) to have fractint and untrafractal people discussing the same fractals in the same thread on the same forum and confusing each other.

Please Re-read post one, Iv'e edited in "Proposal 2" which I think is much better.

[matera]

It would be better to simplify it at first, as Paul said. It is easier to add than take out. I think that having the rate-my-this-and-that in every category is definitely overkill, but I left them in the list because I didn't want to go too far with it all at once. Getting the main categories set is most important. The subcategories can multiply when users ask for them. We need to look at where the most posts are being made for a while, and see if other members have suggestions.

[Jules Ruis]

I agree with the reordering of the Forum with the most reactions.

I think the 'Meet'  Forum is such one.

[alan2here]

"Proposal 2" takes out most of the rate this and that ones Matera the Mad.
I thought it was important to subcatogrise it properly at first to allow descution to take place properly, if there are completly unused forums then maybe they should be removed. There are still verry general forums, you don't have to go though all the way to the last level to post something.

[heneganj]

Hi my gut reaction to both proposals is that they are way too complicated for (at least) a one-time forum change. That is not saying I don't think both are incredibly detailed and well thought out, however! I could be wrong, but looking at proposal 2's Ultrafractal section, it's huge!!

I agree with Mat in that it's better to add than take away.  So would it be better to prune the existing forum and then build it up? 

For example a starting point might be to prune all current forums/threads with no posts.

What might be useful if there are a few (i.e. 3 or more) proposals on the table is to conduct a poll.

Moving forward I am not against looking at forum restructures once a month to ensure the forum evolves to its users needs.

[alan2here]

If we have just more General descustion and we had a hundred of users, they would be mostly showing there stuff they had made using UF with a few showing stuff from other software. The few from other software would keep asking "how did you manege that?" type questions to which there would always be the same answers.

We could just develop it one level at a time, build the first three levels and then the rest as they are needed. The thing is they are not likely to be "needed", there will just be rather messy discution and it will not be obvious that we need more stucture. Also if something is not related to any of the subforum's of the forum you are in but is related to the forum you are in you could just post it there. New users will not emedatly be looking at that whole list I wrote, only the forums on level 3 which will be fine for them to place there more general threads in.

It also seprates out the images and movies sections, to keep the rest free for discution.

The section of other software such as aphophyis does not need to be big as there is no obvious subforums needed. It dosn't mean that it won't prove to be the most popular forum.

[heneganj]

Yes I understand your point.

Here's a suggestion:  For the top level of the forums, i.e. the root boards, try to think how many boards would be the ideal number?

When I first designed FF I wanted 10 - just 10.  I like 10, 10 is a nice round number.  Some of the proposals here reduce that number significantly.  Then, lower level boards need not be so detailed.  Remember a first time visitor to the site must see sufficient fractal related topics for them to be 'caught' - i.e. join us (or come back for more).  OK so too many topics is overload, too little means digging deeper.

Do you think 10 root level topics is a good choice? Less or more is better?  That might be a good starting point for restructures.  For example if I said you are limited to 5, what would the five be?  (it's just a rhetorical question and I'm not going to dictate policy - this is a discussion!)

[Nahee_Enterprises]

     Im not gona list everything, only the good ones, Iv'e probbebly listed all the ones worth listing now.

This is mainly your own preferences that you have listed, and it is only your personal opinion.  There are many more that are very good for what they do and definitely worth listing (if it is to be a true list of "good ones").

    Most people use Ultra Fractal and most equations are disighned to work with UltraFractal, however we dont
    want to alianate people who use other software.

Actually, more people in the world have used FractInt than any other fractal generating software.  Yet this was listed further down the list.  And there was no mention of any of Stephan C. Ferguson's or Terry W. Gintz's contributions to the fractal community in regards to fractal software.

I personally prefer KPT and QuaSZ, but I do not want to have them listed just because that is what I like and use the most.

If you want to know the count of each individual as to their "Most Used" program, then try this link for information:
      http://www.Nahee.com/Census/Most_Used_Counts.html
If you want to know the count of each individual as to the various programs "Tried and/or in Use", then go here:
      http://www.Nahee.com/Census/Tried-Use_Counts.html

    The list is hierarchical, and one of the first dicisions people make is to go into
    software spacific descution or into genral disscution.

If you turn this forum into a lot of sub-groups based upon specific software applications, I can almost guarantee that it will be the downfall of this forum.  I have definitely been involved with more fractal forums, groups, lists, etc..  than the average fractal user, and even more so than a lot of the mainstream enthusiasts.  I have seen this happen before, and it only causes problems in the long run.

It would be much better to keep from trying to lead people one way or the other towards choosing specific software just because a small group of people wish to set up this forum that way.  Better to be more open-minded and have general groups when it comes to specific software.

     It would be choas (in a bad way) to have fractint and untrafractal people discussing the
     same fractals in the same thread on the same forum and confusing each other.

Why not have them in the same group, that is how UF got started in the first place.  Frederik Slijkerman got a lot of the ideas, code examples, and more from the FractInt program and the "Stone Soup" developers when he began creating version 2 a few years ago.  And besides, UF was made to use most of the PAR, FRM, and MAP files that FractInt uses for it's application (though Frederik Slijkerman never did finish supporting all the fractal formulas that FractInt can do).

I would just hate to see this forum turned into a software specific set of groups, like other groups ended up being.  It has caused other groups to lose those people that preferred other types of fractal software than what some Moderator thought should be listed.