Fractal Supersymmetry

[n4t3]

Hello! I am new to the forum community (within the last couple of days) and I wanted to share an idea regarding fractal geometry and chaos theory. I love fractals and I have found a way to make them useful in science. At this point it is only theoretical, but with your help I am confident that we can bring these ideas to experimentation and convince people.

The idea could expose a simplification to particle physics, and the claim is that particle supersymmetry is actually symmetry over magnification, and therefore exhibits self-similar structure describable by fractals-- observable everywhere in nature. It suggests that particle physics doesn't need to create or look for "superpartners" because those guidelines can instead be satisfied by fractals. Moreover, it explains how spacetime itself is fractal and irregular in the supplied formulas.

I posted this on a physics forum under "new theories" just recently but it has not been well received (http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=29323). I feel like this idea is really important and could simplify certain aspects of physics by using fractals to "cancel out" parallel universes, but I am going to need help-- lots of help!

If your interested, I've posted my paper here: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B5jbDGyMTLISYjViNzcwNjUtZDYxNy00Njg4LTllYjEtMTNjNjY3ODEyMmQy&hl=en_US

I ask only one thing... Please keep away from personal attacks in our discussion, as I have already had my dosage of that. Thanks!! 

[Kali]

Hi and welcome!

1st, thanks for sharing your ideas... I'm personally very interested on this subject, so I will take a look at your theory later and give you my opinion.

2nd, don't worry, you won't be attacked here. If your ideas are not liked by the rest you probably will get only some uncomfortable silence. It happened to me, and sometimes I almost prefer some personal attacks

[n4t3]

 

[weavers]

Greetings and Salutations n4t3


You are sentient being,capable of good and mean and every thing in-between both the visible and unseen,wipe clean the ignorance and do what you were born to do, bring forth the new. REWRITE the standard model using the scalars {2,-1,-3} and open your mind to your feelings away from the world and be quiet and into you mind the answers will be there coming to you in words that appear to be a prayer!!

For the old ways of thinking has failed this is why others have not succeeded!
Their minds are made of steel instead of rubber, gobber,flexibility be, the only way to conquer stupidity.

This interpretation as well as other interpretations will remain unsolved in physics because of the lack of maturation of the human species to recognized the power of the fractology paradigms as playful algorithms based on happenstancial luck,which catalysed by an enzyme kinetics in the design of the creators mind,intentionally interpolated to make everything possible as a fractal matrix without a beginning and without an end!!


The problems with the major unsolved problems is that if you are using the human mind in its current evolutionary STATE AS OF TODAY AT THE DAWN OF THE TWENTY FIRST CENTURY, without inputs from the future to help, these problems will remain unsolved today. There are other sciences! Be patient!

page 20
"More over you propose  that an  advanced form of this procedure could be applied to atoms and molecules"
  Verification is circumstantial and is currently constrained by the lack of a new logic yet devised by our specie,listen to your mind,there's more to come, this is just the beginning!

The lack of knowledge of scientists and mathematicians in this area is no ones fault but their own. Witches, Voyagers, Shamans and Occultist with open minds flourish inside the field of mystical intuitive cosmological understanding, while those in the empirical mathematical engineering sciences have floundered on the sidelines for centuries in these studies of human experience in these areas, but that will change thanks in part to the computer and oncoming maturation of the species from one who is afraid of the dark to one whose knowledge is a shiny flashlight. This specie maturation concept is the difference between day and night!
Note will you, the demonic faces appearing as if by magic in the posts of many of the forums members here. Unknown to them their other worldly selves are demanding to be seen and heard and come through electronically unto the screen.
There are other sciences! Be patient!



Opinions cheerfully expressed, whether in consensus or in disagreement, help understanding and collaboration with one another! Peace Be with you .
                                      The fractal forums, the possibilities are infinite!

[Kali]

@n4t3:
Very interesting, I'm studying it... need more time to process it with my limited knowledge and time available, but as far as I'm understanding it, there are some coincidences with ideas I also have:

- The Universe coming to existence from absolute simplicity to infinite complexity = fractal
- The idea of deducing complexity from simplicity rather than simplicity from complexity (*)
- The "creative" power of the apparent temporal "randomness" in irrational/trascendental numbers (i.e. golden ratio, pi) = unpredictability
- Structures raising from recursive natural ocurring geometric operations of space/energy (for me, they are: rotation, folding, scaling and displacement)

But I'm trying to think of time as non-separated spatial dimension, with no special treatment, and I have reached some conclusions (I got Lorentz transform with basic trigonometry and the idea of "movement through time"). But I'm very rusty at math, have to learn a lot yet, I just got some intuitive thinking that sometimes leads me to interesting results.

I will study deeper your paper later today or tomorrow.

(*) some more words on this: Imagine you have an image of a deep zoom into a dendrite area in the Mandelbrot set, and you must deduct the formula that produced it. I you try to backsolve the results, I think it's almost an impossible job. Also the complexity of results makes you believe that the formula is also complex (if you don't nothing about this kind of fractals, off course), but as you have a limited amount of information to study (the small part of the Mandelbrot set), you can begin to find laws that matches aproximately with the patterns in the images, and perhaps you can find a complex algorithm that makes an aproximation of the figures, that only are valid for certain special cases and parts of the image, and with some margin of error, etc. etc.
But if you have the intuitive thinking of the image being produced by a simple recursive process, and begin to try simple formulas that start to give some similar complex results, there are by far more chances to find the true formula, don't you think? 
Anyway, the prior aproximate model was valid at the moment because it was the best way for describing the resulting images yet. But the ultimate true formula turned to be not an improvement of the formulas before, but a totally different thing. I think the same happens with the Universe... we are always finding and improving practical models that describes it with certains levels of aproximation, but I guess the true nature of what we see and experience has little or nothing to do with the actual models we have today.


@weavers:
Yet another very intriguing post, but I have mainly one question: Are you human? because you talk of "human specimens" as if you were not one of us
Or maybe you are from the future? perhaps a more evolutionated human being that found the way to connect to an ancient past version of the internet?

[weavers]

Greetings and Salutations to you n4t3.


You talk about (SUSY), that relates to rudimentary particles of one spin, and adjunct super-partners, busons,fermion with similar quantum numbers and their juxtapositional relationship to the theory of every thing as a constant, to which you beg to differ? Even though quark top,bottom lend credence,you recognized flawed it be,without the physics of general relativity,dark matter and childs gravity matter of factly!

 
Theoretically self-consistent, the standard model stands firm but proposes properties some of which are abnormal, giving rise to more questions then they solve.(QCD) fails to breach CP-symmetry like the electroweak theory violation capabilities as was thought!.

Now Big Bang this n4t3,and add it to list of contemplations for free,set your mind free,mathematics is what you have in thee instead of blood ,it is your destiny , let not the numbers but the concepts of how the beginning began, flow in thee, for it is the concepts of a "nothing " unknown to the likes of us, that implodes and sadly has nowhere to go, This "nothing",  has nowhere to express it self, no memory,history of what to do for it was a "virgin " and it was its first time!
So yes "chaos" ensued in human opinions, estimations but what is ones mans chaos is another creatures order.
Order borders, bordering on the borderless , outside of human contemplations!
Big Bang this n4t3,based on what we conceive  of as madness of elements gone wild, Hot ,heat,heated a life not the kind that comes to our mind, and it was cheated so all bets were off!
Put your self in its place and how it felt to die a horrible death, stay quiet and open your mind : time reversal transformations :  Yes its true. We all would like to turn back the clock!
Wouldn't you? Turn back the hands of time paradigm, yes ,even the special "nothing" that died in its mind, so that others could live , including lowly creatures, flawed creatures like ourselves might at some point in time live and shine!
The concept of a start defined as the Big Bang, proposed assumptions of creation of inequality of balance between matter and anti matter, if CP-symmetry was to be preserved,multiple candidates should have theoretically cancelled each other out, but did not, luckily for us, for we would not be here cavalierly postulating dynamic rhetoric about magnification and other unknowns!
We wish success in this endeavor and newer insights to pregnate your mind, and above all , your will powers intensity to make it be thine!

                           Patience,shortly those who speak your language with expertise will join your quest!


Opinions cheerfully expressed, whether in consensus or in disagreement, help understanding and collaboration             with one another! Peace Be with you .
                                          The fractal forums, the possibilities are infinite!

[weavers]

Greetings and Salutations to you n4t3.


Patience,shortly those who speak your language with expertise will join your quest!
Patience,shortly those who speak your language with expertise will join your quest!
Patience,shortly those who speak your language with expertise will join your quest for knowledge,
And they have, and they have spoken, and we want you to know that despite your ideas defeat before the masters of science in time in your world,  We beg of you to look on the brightest side, and stay not only strong and brave but become even stronger AND BRAVER!

Wipe clean the ignorance and do what you were born to do, bring forth the new,
Wipe clean the ignorance and do what you were born to do, bring forth the new,
Wipe clean the ignorance and do what you were born to do, bring forth the new ,this time credentialed to the max,so that you are their equal in the science of Supersymmetry, for you see what they cannot see and this failure should only serve as a learning exercise to augment your bold audacity to be the very best noble human you can be !
For you wanted to create a fractological methodology prediction scheme, to save not just this world but others from future catastrophes,earthquakes, violent weather eruptions and other unknown scenarios of doom out side of your preview!



We at you laugh not! Nor does  the soul of the universes!


Proud we be of your audacity.
Proud we be of your audacity.
Proud we be of your audacity to see potential where other see none! How godly is this?

Be it known to you and your kinds, toss away ignorance shackles,fractal,for you are a fractal, young,
you will bear a son, and this son will do it,
If not this son will bear a son and he will do it better!
If not his son will bear another son and do it better still!

If not his daughter will bear a daughter and do it better yet!

But it will be done fractal!

We learn by failure n4t3,
We do again what we did not do on our first attempt!
We do again what we did not do our on second attempt!
We do again what we did not do our on third attempt!
We do again until we succeed, and get it right or die trying!


This is the matrix upon which  all knowledge acquirement is based in your world at this time, your time!



This is  the universes fractal law which does not think in human years but  "fracamegas" : fractual ages which are repetitive,repetitive  to a degree but flexible and infinite throughout eternity!.



We wish success in this endeavor and newer insights to pregnate your mind,
We wish success in this endeavor and newer insights to pregnate your mind,
We wish success in this endeavor and newer insights to pregnate your mind,


and above all ,
and above all ,
and above all ,



Your will powers intensity to make it be thine!


Will power is a gift, not from men but the universes old,
Will powers fuel is energy, but this "will power ' energy can not be bought for gold or sold!
Will power, the type you have shown, to show your papers to the masters of science of your time, took will power bold!
Will power is a kind of secret magic inside of us that gives us desire to do and accomplish what we want to do, against all odds.
It defies reasoning, it defies logic, it propels,you to try to do the impossible!

The scientist of your time, will call aforementioned delusional and unexplainable and ridicule it away, not acknowledging, their existence is unexplainable,they are unexplainable,every
thing in their bodies are unexplainable,the rise of man and the demise of man is unexplainable!  Base on the way they speak, the enormous size of their egos are unexplainable.

When you are student of the universes,one ought show humility before them and their subject matter,and demonstrate that nobility at all times,recognizing at all times that you are dealing with magical powers of the divine, perhaps the mysteries of space have turned their back on humans intentionally,and refuse to allow them selves to be solved by them.

Egos,virulent egos,man is but a flee on the skin of  mother earth. What worth?

It is easy to criticize ,its hard to create,n4t3 be proud that you at least tried!
These scientist,all of them, with all of their degrees and master Phds, would never have attempted to do what you have tried to do, shame on them!
The disrespect some of them showed you, as an aspirational novice reflects badly on all of them, and their stature and the respect that society attributes to them. Perhaps this disrespect they have shown to you means we should show a lack of respect for them?

Take solace in the fact that , you are in the wrong time, in the right place.


Take solace in the fact that there are other sciences! Be patient!


Will powers dwells in the realm of magic. The power of manipulating the energies stored in the chambers of your mind to  influence the course of events in time,by using mysterious or supernatural forces : " magic ,"soon as your scientist hear about magic they begin to laugh. Will powers magic is not a science yet,in the eyes of your scientists, because nowhere  can it  be  demonstrated  its use in empirically observable reality thus far!.
Without will powers magic, humanity would not survive another second. Without the magic of will power how survives thee? Accomplish thee what? Win what war will thee? Does it take thee,will power to have sex? What role does will power plays in sex? Are there different types of will power magic? Why does 'sexual  magic will power'  overwhelm the senses of the human species and render them foolish,both female and especially the male?

 Above all 'sexual magic will powers', emerges as the strongest forces amongst  the portfolio of the magical will powers that there are.

                               Sex, if not by magic will power impulses, then what?

        Where does the magically appearing  will power come from if not the universe unexplainably?


These little musings we say are meant to entertain your mind and lift your spirit and fill it with hope for a           better day.

                                               Thank you , n4t3 for being thee.

Opinions cheerfully expressed, whether in consensus or in disagreement, help understanding and collaboration          with one another! Peace Be with you .
                                    
                                      The fractal forums, the possibilities are infinite!

[n4t3]

Hey I had to completely rewrite my theory, so here's the second version: https://docs.google.com/viewer?http://physics.stackexchange.com/editing-helpa=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B5jbDGyMTLISOTJmMzI3MjgtNzM0Yi00NzY0LWJhNDgtNGVmYmVkY2JmOWYw&hl=en_US so the emphasis is not focused on supersymmetry but rather spacetime itself.

Its my first attempt at a scientific publication and the document still needs a little bit of work/tweaking, but its a start.

The 3 real-valued dimensions of space are replaced with 3 complex-valued dimensions, allowing for a total of 6 spatial dimensions. The dimension of "time" is removed and the theory proposes that "time" itself is a periodic rate of change of spatial arrangements. By making the dimensions themselves complex, we allow them to fluctuate on all levels to account for scale-invariant non-linearity. The real and imaginary components of the 3 complex dimensions are interpreted as rates of change, generated by "clockwise" and "counter-clockwise" particle spin, in the form of acceleration. It appears that principle of relativity may be satisfied on the quantum level, and that the universe may be "clockwork" on the quantum scale. We explain how this may be possible using pythagorean theorem. Iterated functions are incorporated into the metric tensor, where it is proposed that particles behave as iterated functions. Mass itself may be the intersection of the real and imaginary manifold components, allowing spacetime to "bend" according to GR. Then particle spin propogates charge throughougt the universe, thus in short, all spatial structures may be "generated" via quantized particle acceleration.

Although perhaps bizarre, we assert that the laws of physics are "deterministic" and that all degrees of biological consciousness may adhere to "non-deterministic" behavior, and propose that this may be proven someday in neuroscience. We assert that chaos theory may be true and that fractal geometry can be used to describe the patterns observed in nature, on all scales.

So yeah... who knows. ;-)

[murphinegan]

This is amazing food for thought. Have you read road to reality by Roger Penrose?

[phiaera]

I tried, in my English class, to unify GR and QM with fractal geometry, as it just seems intuitively correct since fractals such as the Mandelbrot Set combines chaos with order, but I changed my topic mid-way to Space Exploration as the topic itself was too abstract.

Anyways, some comments:

I agree with the 'clockwork' model and that our limited abilities to understand/observe the quantum phenomenons make it appear non-deterministic. According to Green's An Elegant Universe, QM scientists use their statistical method because it works, and it does, even though they don't really understand why it works. My simple example of the this problem has always been a coin flip or the shuffling of cards. If we factor in all the forces exerted on the coin or if we remembered exactly all the steps in how the deck of cards is shuffled, then it wouldn't be random anymore, even though we could use probability in the end as a shortcut.

I also think that fractals and the fibonacci sequence are co-conspiring mathematical phenomenons in the grand scheme of the universe. They are such naturally occuring phenomenons; yet, scientists seem to be ignoring this elegant pattern minding their own Euclidean model of the physical realm.

I think the two, fractals and fibonacci numbers, are a great model for describing the universe as it has a lot to do with efficiency. Some examples of nature using this includes trees for branching, sunflowers for seed packing, and goose feathers in their approximate phi fractal dimension. (http://ningpan.net/Publications/101-150/141.pdf) But I also think that this extraordinary pattern goes far beyond efficiency. I think it has a much more far-reaching fundamental meaning in the organization of space and time and why nature has taken to these patterns.

[taurus]

I tried, in my English class, to unify GR and QM with fractal geometry...

if you ever succeed, you'll be a hot candidate for the next nobel prize in physics 

According to Green's An Elegant Universe, QM scientists use their statistical method because it works, and it does, even though they don't really understand why it works.

in fact the whole qm is not understood until today. we talk about the duality of particle and wave with a studied casualness, trying to hide the fact, that still noone can say what an elementary particle does, when it is none of both - and it is most of the time!

[Alef]

Just why you picked that sneaky evils site lurking in all, what you do, and puting some shit on youtube. Google is 

but you don't have permission to access this item. You can request access from the owner or choose a different account.

[Alef]

Actualy there is no experimental proof of supersymmetry, string theory and higgs boson. So at least some of them could be not completely right. There is no found evidence of supersummetric particles and even a single sParticle.