Mandelbulb 3d Development Officially Continued (beta is out)

[DarkBeam]

People you are talking about nothing.
Seriously.
1. The code is obscure. Every apparently insignificant change takes weeks of intense work.

My first idea was to raise n° of max formulas to say 32. This would make some people insanely happy I am sure.

That means, if it's done... the whole parameter handling needs to be rewritten, losing compatibility, so to load params we need a conversion routine.

Imagine, given this, how insane is to think of ANY other modding.

2. The code contains large pieces in assembly. That's the source of nonportability and trouble. But also that's why the program is the fastest renderer I know.

Many things are hardcoded, not using constants just plain numbers.

Probably the idea was "ok the limit is 6 ... ok the max is 100 ...so don't bother it just works".
And it works but change 6 to 32 or 100 to 1000... it's not so easy as it seems.

3. Again. Jesse asked to not publish the code. THIS DECISION IS NOT UNDER DISCUSSION
If we begin to pass it around it will likely end in the internet... for some reason...
Once this happens, no remedy exists.
This is a risk I don't want to take.

So again stop asking and asking.
The possible will be done when possible.
Also don't try to insult or discuss about how Jesse codes. No please.

[Kali]

...Mmmmm, I lke the sound of this.
I really hope you could work this out together  

IMHO gpu rendering it's indeed the main feature that would make sense to develop asap instead of adding 50+ formula slots or whatever. Also full custom formula editor. Trying to code a gpu version of Mandelbulb3D it's something I'm considering since a while, only I didn't have the time before. I was hoping to have a nice and kind conversation about it with Jesse, like in good old times. Now I am only hoping this guy will do something good about it, now that I am aware he is the new owner of the code, now that I know I am officially out of the further development of M3D, and now that he somehow have this almighty power to decide which things are allowed to be discussed here, and which things I can say or not, based on his likes and dislikes. Haha, that last thing alone it's so ridicule and hilarious that I won't take this guy seriously anymore.

I love diversity, like it is in nature, in life itself, and like it is in fractals. I don't see what's wrong about multiple projects and versions. That would be awesome... Mandelbulb3D forked... a fractal program converting into a fractal. The only thing I could think of about Andreas don't liking it, it's the fear of another version resulting better than his own... lol

Hopefully the ones reading this thread will understand that it's not about likes or dislikes, it's about what is right and fair. Anyway, I will move on... I will work on a parallel project later or sooner, with the help of the right people, and with or without M3D source code. This guy is of course free of doing what he wants with Jesse code if he gave him the permission... I don't see yet in him any good ideas or determination. Only doubts, silence requests, complains, dislikes and authoritarian behaivour. Not to mention he's asking for low expectations since the start, lol. At the end of the day, my offer was indeed a GPU enabled Mandelbulb3D with fully customizable formula editor. I don't see what he is offering at all... But ok, it was Jesse's decision to give him the code, I cannot do anything but accept it. I will only make clear that if he decide at some point to make a commercial version, he will have to remove Amazing Surface and other formulas that I gave to Luca and Jesse to code for the program, and not to this man to get some money out of it.

I hope the spirit of M3D will prevail and not be lost.

Johan, you know what I am talking about, please allow me to use your own words:

“I am definitely a solitary Artist, but the exchange with the mathematicians and programmers at fractalforums.com has meant everything, without them I would not be where I am today with my art."

"I had a close collaboration with Jesse during the development of Mandelbulb 3D."

"I love this mutual respect that we have for each others skills at fractalforums that is what makes it such a intense boiling pot of ideas."

http://mandelwerk.deviantart.com/art/The-Mathematician-206354052
http://mandelwerk.deviantart.com/art/The-programmer-207422735
http://mandelwerk.deviantart.com/art/The-Artist-206966558


Luckily, the possibilities are still infinite. Despite Luca's opinion

[blob]

I request a (colored) 3D point cloud export feature in ply format. 

[Sockratease]

Since we are making suggestions...

I would like to offer an idea that I think will be easy to implement.  Just a few more features from the main program ported to the 3D Navi.  Specifically the "repeat from here" checkbox and maybe an undo feature for when we move to a bad spot and can't get back where we wanted to be. 

If moving features to the Navi is indeed easier, then while it's happening maybe even the formula tabs themselves for easy swapping formulas without jumping from window to window.  But, of course, I am perfectly happy with the software as it is!

IMHO gpu rendering it's indeed the main feature that would make sense to develop asap ...

A gpu version would be fantastic!!  If I had a graphics card   

I request a (colored) 3D point cloud export feature in ply format. 

And colored point clouds sound interesting.  I have difficulty UV Mapping some of my obj files because they are so large they choke most programs capable of UV Mapping 3D Models.  So anything that would simplify that aspect would be great   

[0Encrypted0]

1. The code is obscure. Every apparently insignificant change takes weeks of intense work.

Sounds hopeless!

2. The code contains large pieces in assembly.
That's the source of nonportability and trouble.
But also that's why the program is the fastest renderer I know.
Many things are hardcoded, not using constants just plain numbers.
Probably the idea was "ok the limit is 6 ... ok the max is 100 ...so don't bother it just works".
And it works but change 6 to 32 or 100 to 1000... it's not so easy as it seems.

People will ask questions. This is the kind of information needed to answer those questions.

3. Again. Jesse asked to not publish the code. THIS DECISION IS NOT UNDER DISCUSSION

Understood.
Are the ideas and methods inherent in the code to be kept private as well?

@DarkBeam: Do you know if the Monte Carlo render piece (that was added later in the development) required a complete rewrite?
If not, could other modules be added in the same way? (GPU rendering for example)

Request:
One thing I would like to see in the formula tab is the ability to swap two formulas rather than shifting.
Need to be able to swap forward or backward.
Example: F2 selected and right click to swap with F1 or F3.

[thargor6]

and not to this man to get some money out of it.

Nice, how you try to turn your own anger against me. Did I say, I want not to collaborate? I did say yes, and you should contact me to talk about some ideas.
You didnt, but now you are writing about me in this thread in the 3rd person. With you showing such a behaviour, I have no interest in a collaboration with you.
But, you may still contact me, maybe it is a language barrier or something...

The other thing: Did I state that I want not to publish the source code? It is a wish of Jesse, of course, and we have to respect this, unless he is changing this boundary condition.
This can not be changed by discussing a lot and a lot again :-)

This money-argument is just ridicoulous, no need to waste more words on it.

Regarding the several versions: You know the situation from Apo? Apo2.09, Apo2.06JK-version, Apo2.09 3D Hack, Apo7X, Apo7X private edition, ...
It was a thought for discussion from my side, but you seem not very open to a discussion...

[youhn]

  Anyone?

  maybe .... ?

There is no money involved, just lots of work, feeling and emotions. I really don't understand all the frustration and anger towards Mandelbulb 3D. I mean, we have Mandelbulber which is open source and under development. More possibilities for the future. Then there is Fragmentarium which used GPU, which on the long run could make both MB3D and Mandelbulber obsolete. This is also open source.

Since Mandelbulber is under active development, I don't understand why people are not moving towards this piece of software. Features can be requested and added, GUI could possibly change. And the developer is openly asking for help, giving everyone the chance to join. Why don't people just pick the stuff they like from MB3D, and request it for Mandelbulber?

Do MB3D users just want to stay in their comfort zone, fearing the change of using new software? What great things does MB3D have that makes everyone stay with it?

/me don't understanding the whole issue

[3dickulus]

@youhn : I agree 100%

There may be some wisdom in Jesse's decision.
Technologies change fast, highly specialized asm does not.
The "ideas" represented in this program are good and will continue to be expressed by others

Thank you, Jesse, (and other contributors) for expressing these ideas and sharing your program.

[haltenny]

This is something that many of us would love to see happen. I sincerely hope everyone expressing different opinions or ideas can take a step back and calm down. I would hate to see the possible progress of continued development for MB3D abandoned before it has even began due to differences in opinions. Surely all ideas are worth discussing and priorities could be given? I respect all coders opinions and ideas (Kali's, thargor6's, Luca's, everyone!) and it seems to me good things could be accomplished if all could work together. 

And something I've been curious about is could MB3d be made 64 bit? I'm not a coder, so sorry if that's a dumb question like I usually ask...

[Sockratease]

...Why don't people just pick the stuff they like from MB3D, and request it for Mandelbulber?

Do MB3D users just want to stay in their comfort zone, fearing the change of using new software? What great things does MB3D have that makes everyone stay with it?

/me don't understanding the whole issue

Actually, yes!  I cannot speak for others, but I do prefer to remain in my comfort zone when it comes to creating my Art.  While I have no  fear of the change of using new software, I simply see no need to do so.  I don't even use UltraFractal because I hate it's UI so much.

That does not mean it's not a good program, just that I have software I am comfortable with, and enjoy using.

There is absolutely no logical reason to use a program to relax and make art with when I find it cumbersome and a bother to just learn the interface.

That is the only reason I don't use Mandelbulber, UltraFractal, Fragmentarium, and a host of other software from many genres  ( example; I use Carrara for my 3D work because it's affordable and I took right to it's interface without any steep learning curve.  And despite it's immense power, open source nature, and fantastic reputation - I will never use Blender for anything other than a file converter as I simply Loathe it's interface!)

This is something that many of us would love to see happen. I sincerely hope everyone expressing different opinions or ideas can take a step back and calm down. I would hate to see the possible progress of continued development for MB3D abandoned before it has even began due to differences in opinions. Surely all ideas are worth discussing and priorities could be given? I respect all coders opinions and ideas (Kali's, thargor6's, Luca's, everyone!) and it seems to me good things could be accomplished if all could work together.  

And something I've been curious about is could MB3d be made 64 bit? I'm not a coder, so sorry if that's a dumb question like I usually ask...

All that is nice, but it fails to take into account the wishes of the creator and owner of the program!

If he says it will never be open source we just have to accept it.  He is not here to defend himself, so we have no choice.  

As for 64 Bit - this was asked a lot when Jesse was here.  Yes, it would require a complete re-write and was deemed too much work.

Back when Carrara was 32 Bit only, users found a way to make it "Large Address Aware" which allowed it to use more than the 4 GB Ram limit set for 32 Bit software.  It was totally outside of the program itself and no coding was needed.  If that could be done for MB3D it could use a lot more RAM, but it would still run at the same speed.  The benefit would be in large calculations and higher resolution images.

Anybody have any idea if that is possible in this case?  I admit I am clueless in that department  

[haltenny]

All that is nice, but it fails to take into account the wishes of the creator and owner of the program!

If he says it will never be open source we just have to accept it.  He is not here to defend himself, so we have no choice.  

It wasn't my intent for my comment to seem to be against Jessie's wishes and I'm sorry if anyone saw it that way. I was commenting on the different ideas on continued development, and how the coders seemed a bit thin skinned and immediately flying off the handle. I want this to succeed and not get bogged down with different approaches, forked versions and opinions. I think that would be in the best interest of everyone, wouldn't it?

[Sockratease]

It wasn't my intent for my comment to seem to be against Jessie's wishes and I'm sorry if anyone saw it that way. I was commenting on the different ideas on continued development, and how the coders seemed a bit thin skinned and immediately flying off the handle. I want this to succeed and not get bogged down with different approaches, forked versions and opinions. I think that would be in the best interest of everyone, wouldn't it?

Sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Yes, people are getting, as you say, a bit thin skinned over this.

I hope my words didn't imply I was scolding you in any way!

The future of MB3D is in good hands with Andreas, and I look forward to whatever he chooses to do with it.

[thargor6]

I want this to succeed and not get bogged down with different approaches, forked versions and opinions.

Exactly this is my approach :-) But, I'm open for discussion of anything, just in a mature way 

[cKleinhuis]

we could continue releasing official versions here in the forums,

@thargor  you are in control of the main development and coordinate contributions ? (for now ) ?

[DarkBeam]

I just ask; all the collabs must be mature and trusted persons, and Jesse's decisions is not under discussions.
Should be enough for everyone ok?