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Author Topic: Fractal Architect 3D - fractals done the Mac way!  (Read 26126 times)
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thargor6
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2014, 11:25:28 PM »

Very bold statements here :-) I had a quick view of one of the videos and must say that I liked the interface from what I saw so far.
But statements like "blowing anything else out of the water" and cites like "Users of ... and JWildfire will be crying" are just distracting me. JWildfire has a very strong and mature user community, I never saw them crying :-) Of course, a GPU renderer can be very fast. But as some people already stated, quality counts first if it comes to fractal art.

So I'm also very interested to see any hard facts :-) The images I saw so far, seem only to be random fractals. Not bad at all, also JWildfire makes heavy use of random fractals, but usually those are no good ressource for comparing rendering results.

Andreas
 
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lycium
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2014, 01:27:04 AM »

I agree with you Far that quality is very important. I have not tested the unlimited version of Chaotica so I can't easily compare the rendering quality between the two.

The unlimited (Studio) licence is not required to compare moderate resolution (1.23 megapixel) images, however if you would like to do a comparison I would be happy to provide you with a Chaotica HD licence (up to 4 megapixels). The new 1.5 beta with (basic) motion-blurred animation support, much faster rendering and many user interface improvements is just dying for some testing! smiley

Please let me know by email or PM if you're interested. I'll be making a blog post about this soon, too!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 01:28:40 AM by lycium » Logged

Far
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2014, 02:20:33 AM »

I have not tested the unlimited version of Chaotica so I can't easily compare the rendering quality between the two.

I don't think the resolution limit in the free version should get in the way of assessing things like anti-aliasing. But, probably even better are the several hundred finished artworks at http://chaoticafractals.deviantart.com, which should be more than sufficient to give anybody a good idea of what the rendering looks like.

Quote
They are both important to me. If I turn your example around I can just as easily say that the best rendering quality in the world would not be as interesting if the interface did not lend itself to inspiring creative work and discovery.

Well... I briefly alluded to this in the last paragraph of my previous post, but I guess I should state more clearly that I don't personally find FA's interface to be all that inspiring. For now I'm only going off of your videos, but it seems to rely far too much on randomization tools. I know that this is very subjective, but pressing "roll dice" and then picking a generated thumbnail out of a group kind of sounds like the opposite of creative work to me. undecided This isn't to say that randomization is "wrong" or that it shouldn't be in the program; obviously randomization tools can be useful. I just think it's a stretch to call a heavily randomization-based fractal making process "inspiring."

As for "user experience"... man, I understand that parts of chaotica's UI are heavily in development, I'm not really trying to dispute that at all. XD But I think the size and quality of the chaoticafractals gallery is a good sign that the work-in-progress interface isn't holding artists back that much.

Quote
It's important here to make clear that I'm not coming into fractal making from a mathematic interest side but from an interest in the produced art.

Me too, actually. That's actually why I value the render quality so much, because of the effect it has on the "produced art." If I were in this only for the math then I could probably overlook the ugly aliasing, but as an artist, I cannot.

I could probably respond to a lot more stuff, but I will just cut to the main purpose of this comment: my sample render! grin



I only made one change to the params I linked earlier, which was to lower the Gamma Threshold to 0 (I would have done that before I made the pastebin, but just forgot). Anyway, hopefully you can change that from within Fractal Architect, or if not, just change gamma_threshold="0.02" to gamma_threshold="0.0" in the xml before you import. Last but not least, I just kept the 800x800 size that it was at but I can definitely render a much bigger version if you would like to compare that too.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 02:28:53 AM by Far » Logged

LMarkoya
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2014, 03:38:38 AM »

With Apophysis and JWildfire both free, and with JWildfire giving regular updates, I'm afraid Fractal Architect 3D does not stand a chance and will not even be looked at for $49.95. What I've seen from the program does not justify the price difference.....I'd like to be wrong, but don't think so
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sbrodheadsr
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2014, 04:44:49 PM »

Hi Guys,
I am Steve Brodhead Sr. the author of Fractal Architect and Flam4CUDA for Mac.
My son, Steven Brodhead Jr., who is not involved in Fractal Architect development, is the author of Flam4CUDA for Windows which he wrote in 2007.
I am thankful to have such a gifted son to able to become one of the pioneers of CUDA development without any help
(Flam4CUDA for Windows had been one of the first 10 CUDA programs that Nvidia featured on their website way back then.)

In 2008 and 2009, Flam4CUDA for Windows was benchmarked at 100 to 200X faster than flam3, but of course this performance improvement
was totally dependent on the FLOPS capability of the GPUs used and the FLOPS capability of the CPU used for flam3.

What made the speed differential? Its all in the Chaos game algorithm and its total dependence on fast floating point operations and transcendental functions.
If you parallelize the algorithm and do a good renderer implementation, the rendering speed can scream. Performance of the core flame fractal algorithm
scales directly to the power of the GPUs used. And contrary to some claims, the renderer results are exactly the same as on a CPU.

For the EXACT same reason, virtually no one plays 3D games using a CPU software renderer if they have a fast GPU (or GPUs) available.

CPUs and GPUs are different devices with different strengths and weaknesses. But this has been very well documented elsewhere. You might go to anandtech.com and check out their many articles on GPUs, CPUs, CUDA, OpenCL, and of course his most recent review of the new Mac Pro.

I will post much more later today along with the render results.
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tatasz
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2014, 05:57:05 PM »

Well, i understand the chaos game part - lots of mathy people in this thread lol - and all I want are examples and more examples =D
Or maybe a trial version so we can just check it out by ourselves  A Beer Cup
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lycium
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2014, 06:29:13 PM »

Hi Steve (Sr.), good to see you joining the discussion, hopefully soon with results!

One caveat: please don't selectively reply to my emails - it was nice discussing Chaotica details, but I do ask that you take down the misinformation on your product comparison page, or at least not refer to Chaotica by name with all those inaccuracies. I've taken the time to write you a detailed email with everything that's wrong on the list, and only ask that you stop representing my product on your page however you like. I'm posting this here since you seem to have time to make posts on Fractal Forums now, but I made that request some days ago...

[edit: Thank you, and sorry for mentioning it here unnecessarily I guess.]
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 11:16:22 PM by lycium » Logged

Lelle
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2014, 08:34:39 PM »

"We arent talking about user experience, we are talking about speed and image quality, so please don't."


I have been talking about user experience all along. If you don't want to talk about it it's fine with me, but I will continue to talk about the user experience. I can see that rendering quality and speed is an important issue for the developing team behind Chaotica. It's important to us too, but it's not the only important thing. Let me tell you a bit of the idea behind Fractal Architect 3D.

The core idea behind FA is very customizable randomness. Chaotica and all other fractal apps can make fractals from scratch and edit them with a systems of triangles, or affine transforms as the Chaotica team prefer to call it. So can FA, so there's no difference there. Most fractal app can also make random fractals. But this is where Fractal Architect really differs from the rest. The amount of control over the randomization process goes very deep in FA.

• You can pick your transforms and set a max weight.
• You can set the limits for the transform parameters (from -2000 to 2000 or -0.0005 to 0.0005 or whatever)
• You can set the transforms you want to link (including type, weight, parameters and number)
• You can set final Xforms
• You can set the symmetry
• you can set random Xaos
• You can set the 3D camera parameters

You can also save all of those as a favorit combination, name them, categorize them, rate them, export and import them.

When you find something interesting you can put them in the stash and choose which ones to develop later. When you find something you want to edit you can run it through the variants editor. here you can randomize

• transform weights
• variants weights
• parameters
• Final Xform
• Xaos
• Symmetry
• Brightness and gamma settings
• Camera parameters
• Color gradient
• Color rotation
• Background color
• Color speed
• Triangle movement, rotation and sizes
• Mix ins of extra variations per transforms

All this can be set to very precise amounts. This is no ordinary randomization, it's a very powerful sketching tool. Like a painter sketch his painting with caracole before doing it in oil, the randomization in Fractal Architect lets the user sketch his fractal, before doing the deep editing in the Triangle Editor.

This is the strong point of FA that we are as proud of as the Chaotica team of their rendering quality. If you want to compare the rendering quality wouldn't it be fair to compare the fractal editing and user experience too?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 08:41:37 PM by Lelle » Logged
tatasz
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2014, 09:55:50 PM »

Sorry but:
1. You didnt explain you were talking about experience until people asked to prove it.
2. Experience is very personal thing, as Far mentioned.
3. Speed and quality measures are objective. So we go for objective.

Also, in your comparisons, you only focus on whatever is good for you. Which is biased, and, as a statistician, i can tell you: bias is bad =)
Like not mentioning you were talking ONLY about user experience until we asked for renders. Or forgetting to add AA to the software comparison (basically just listed all the features FA has and didnt mention whatever it doesnt have  A Beer Cup)

About user experience. As it was mentioned many times, its a very personal thing. For instance, your description was quite a major turn down for me =(
I usually fractal having an idea about what each element does. So, first of all, rather than controlled randoming, i prefer controlled experimentation. Because its faster (if you want, for example, to randomize the position of a transform, you can just move it around in the editor) and allows me to change the rules any moment. Plus i can just observe the fractal changing as i move the transform and can choose a perfect position for it. To random something like this I would need to hit randomize button over 9999 times.
Second, I do a few math based stuff, which is entirely not random. Even more, you need to do lots of math to rotate, scale and position everything correctly, and any randomization would insta ruin it. Of course i'm not any close to this guy, take a look at the fine work: http://zy0rg.deviantart.com/art/Octopus-363366336
Finally, "sketching" sounds like doing lots of work and then ahve to type in all the numbers anyway =D
So see, i just don`t want to make random fractals =) And when i do, i make them in a non random way =)

Also, last but not least, and sorry for caps: TRIANGLES!
Its not that we prefer calling them affine transforms. That thingy you call "triangles" has many uses in mathematics, and also has a name for it. Which is used by people minimally familiar with the underlying math: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_transformation
Why not triangles?
1. Well, they do have a name after all. It looks kinda like if someone decided to use a word "rectangle" when talking about a computer, for example.
2. It is misleading. One of the most common mistakes new users make is actually thinking that transforms have a trangular shape. Now try creating a Sierpinsky carpet with "triangles". If you call them transformations, it will be way easier to understand and make.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 11:10:51 PM by tatasz » Logged

Please check my gallery: http://tatasz.deviantart.com/
sbrodheadsr
Forums Freshman
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2014, 12:15:25 AM »

Hi Steve (Sr.), good to see you joining the discussion, hopefully soon with results!

One caveat: please don't selectively reply to my emails - it was nice discussing Chaotica details, but I do ask that you take down the misinformation on your product comparison page, or at least not refer to Chaotica by name with all those inaccuracies. I've taken the time to write you a detailed email with everything that's wrong on the list, and only ask that you stop representing my product on your page however you like. I'm posting this here since you seem to have time to make posts on Fractal Forums now, but I made that request some days ago...

[edit: Thank you, and sorry for mentioning it here unnecessarily I guess.]

These are the categories that were taken down from my web site. I will post only Fractal Architect's stats here.

I hereby publicly challenge the Chaotica developer to reveal his feature list comparison.

Price                                                                                      $50 FA 3D,    FA Sampler - Free, No Trial period - useable forever
Product Version                                                                       3.1.0
Platforms                                                                                Mac
GPU Rendering Available                                                          Yes
GPU Brands supported                                                             ATI, Nvidia, Intel Iris (HD 4000 & HD 5000)
Render Size License Limit                                                         FA 3D - None,   FA Sampler - 1.23 Megapixels
Render Device Limit                                                                 FA 3D - GPU or CPU,  FA Sampler - CPU
# of Variation types included                                                     FA 3D - 330     FA Sampler - 45
3D Fractals                                                                              FA 3D - Yes      FA Sampler - No
Sub-Flame Support                                                                   No
LayerZ Support                                                                         No
Vector Objects as Flames                                                           No
Custom Variation Architecture                                                    FA 3D - Variation Sets      FA Sampler - only 45 popular variations from Flam3
Max # of Variations Max per Variation Set                                   128 (typically you hit the limit on the next line first)
Max # of Variations and Variation Parameters Per Variation Set     216
# of Variation Sets Viewable and Editable at the Same time          Unlimited  (FA Sampler only its 1)
Pause/Resume Renders - Saveable Render State                          Yes
Progressive Rendering                                                                Yes
Photoshop-Like Color Curves                                                       No
Random Generator                                                                     Yes, See randomization controls below
Random With Control                                                                  Yes
Random Final Transforms and Linked Transforms Available             Yes
Random Favorites (Memorized Settings that are Exportable/Importable)     Yes
Stash                                                                                         FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Variant Editor                                                                              FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Variant Editor Categories                                                             15   See posting below for list of categories
Editor Fractal Image Quality                                                         High - its render quality is a user changeable setting
Editor Fractal Image Size                                                              Small to Large - it can be detached and resized as you like
Triangle Editor                                                                             Yes
Color Gradient Editor                                                                    Yes
Quicklook  (open temporary larger view of a fractal - resize however you want)          Yes
Keyframes                                                                                  FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Create PDF Folio of Keyframes                                                      FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Finder Thumbnails (Finder is the equivalent of Windows Explorer)    Yes
Use PDF Folio or Video for Finder quicklook                                    FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Make Video Animations                                                                FA 3D - Yes with full Motion Blur if desired,    FA Sampler - No
Loop/Morph Video Animation                                                        FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Make Video Animations by Animation Parameters in Triangle Editor  FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Render To File                                                                              Yes
Render to Image File Sequence                                                      FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Convert Image File Sequence to Video                                            FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
Splice Videos                                                                                FA 3D - Yes,    FA Sampler - No
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lycium
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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2014, 01:38:22 AM »

Hi Steve,

I'll take that challenge! But before I do, please let me see if I have the current situation straight:

FA claims so far:

  • Blows everything else out the water - Thoroughly refuted by 3 parties, unaddressed.
  • Faster rendering - Still no evidence, appeal to GPU hype/authority.
  • High quality rendering - Still no evidence.
  • Push-button randomisation is more "inspiring" than deliberate design - Unaddressed.

It's apparently now time to bear even more burden of proof, even though I'm not the one making empty claims...


Of all the Chaotica features I could list, there is one that I really think FA should answer first:

  • Can make decent quality images

By Far's carefully explained image quality criteria, we're still waiting on any evidence at all. I'm not letting this one go- just show one decent quality image that came straight out of FA, params included. I don't believe it's possible, especially if you've just followed the same tired old flam3 rendering recipe from the 90s.

If you think image quality is just the "quality" setting in flam3, as your feature list seems to suggest, then the discussion is best left to the many artists who choose Chaotica over other programs - it's simply because it's the only one that doesn't make ugly renders, and not having ugly renders turns out to be quite important for artists.

It gets even worse when you consider that Chaotica, Apophysis and JWildfire all use double precision rendering, which is very important for chaotic fractal iterations - does FA do this, or do you again sacrifice image quality for speed?

As far as I'm concerned, if a piece of commercial art software is incapable of making decent quality images on its own, it's not really art software is it? Even Apophysis makes far higher quality images, and I've seen better results from JWildfire too; their price is hard to beat, and their performance with CPU rendering (such as Lelle uses exclusively) is far better than FA's by your own measurements.


This inexcusable fact ought to practically end the discussion, though I guess I'll have try looking beyond this fundamental flaw (besides the other bold claims left unaddressed) before finishing some kind of laundry list of features and buttons in the interface, which seems to be what you've delivered and are expecting from me...
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sbrodheadsr
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Posts: 16


« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2014, 06:20:46 AM »

Hi Thomas  [possibly private email address removed by moderator]    (lycium) since you have threatened to sue me in this email:

Hi,

I don't expect a reply to the very long mail, but I do ask that you take the misinformation on your comparison page down, otherwise I'll have to look into legal action.

Thanks,


Thomas


I have decided to pursue this discussion at a later date of my choice, when I am able to give this whole discussion proper attention.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:47:46 PM by Sockratease » Logged
lycium
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2014, 06:31:38 AM »

I asked you about a week ago simply to remove completely false information from your comparison page, very specifically. I think that's totally fair to ask, just like you might ask me to take incorrect information about your product down from mine if I did that. Instead you edited the table to correct one error, and then left it until posting here today.

While we're posting each other's correspondence, I really am perplexed by this-

Quote
You have a fine product for which you should be proud. You don’t need to worry about Fractal Architect - you need to worry about JWildfire. Andreas has proven himself to be a very capable developer and his speed at releasing innovative new features to the fractal community is frankly - awesome.

If you are so concerned about JWildfire and don't regard FA as a competitor to Chaotica, then why exactly are you guys here throwing all the punches, and then declining to give the hyperbolic claims any substance?
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Far
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Posts: 14


« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2014, 06:52:29 AM »

So uh... meanwhile... I've been holding off posting again until Lelle put up the comparison render he mentioned yesterday. Is that still happening? huh?

Though, if I'm being honest I have to say I find it a little bit premature to be issuing public challenges when multiple people have asked, starting at post number four, to see an example of FA's best image quality and so far the only response has been a grainy and aliased image... which then turned out to be postprocessed anyway. undecided
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hobold
Fractal Bachius
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Posts: 573


« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 11:32:48 AM »

Gentlemen.

Maybe you have issued a call to arms before you even know what you are warring over?


It seems to me that this debate should not be public. The awareness of public visibility sometimes does strange things to our reason and our common sense. I think it is not too late to take a step back, to take a deep breath, and get a bit of a distance between your anger and your better self.

Punch a bag if that helps. Call up an old friend and vent if that helps. Run five miles if that helps.

Then consider, both of you, if maybe this whole conversation should start over. Perhaps even with two apologies? Certainly with less publicity.
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