Fractal nature of time

[Sockratease]

--again, I bring up an old topic, but I don't think everything has been said, so here I go again
and after all, if time IS fractal, than it's just natural that similar shape--..topics come up from ..ehh.. time to time  --

Never a problem bumping an old discussion if you have something to add to it!  I have difficulty understanding forums who make rules about re-visiting old topics.

"As above, so is below" is a statement used in religious dogma, I have never heard it used in any serious Scientific argument.

If you really think that, what exactly are we doing in this forum? Isn't this sentence in a way the essence of fractals??

If we stay in the analogy: the fully zoomed out mandelbrot, zoomed out so far that you only see an evanescent point, a singularity - the zoom in is the big bang. I don't see any contradictions here..

I do really think what I said!  I draw a distinct line between Mathematical Constructs, and the Universe we live in.  While fractals display such self-similarity on an infinite scale, I whole-heartedly deny the existence of anything infinite in the real world.  

Not for lack of any proof - infinity by it's very nature can never be proven  (or disproven!), but simply based on what I choose to believe due to my lifetime of observations.

There are things in the world which seem to follow fractal rules in their structure, but they are quite finite.  That's the distinction I am trying to draw - the difference between Fractals as a mathematical construct, and real-world objects built with a fractal-like structure.  The two are not identical.  

While, as you say, this concept is in a way the essence of fractals, fractals do not exist in the real world.  Time does.  This imposes certain restrictions on the nature of time, foremost of which is that it cannot be infinite because that would be extending a mathematical construct from a purely mental exercise to a real world thing.

My argument is equally nonsensical, faith-based, and unprovable as it's opposite.  Neither one is a topic that can be reduced any further than opinions, intuitions, and guesses.

But this way of seeing things is the world view that makes the most sense to me, and the way I choose to perceive things.

I have no issues with others holding whatever world views they like; however, I do reject all world views incompatible with my own  (to do otherwise would be self contradictory!).

As for what exactly we are doing in this forum...  We are discussing and playing with those mathematical constructs I mentioned to make Art and possibly draw some understanding of The Universe in the process.  

[xenodreambuie]

It's possible to make a case for fractal structure of space-time at small scales, as Laurent Nottale does in his book "Scale relativity and fractal space-time -- a new approach to unifying relativity and quantum mechanics" with some reasonable arguments and no shortage of physics. Whether it leads to anything, I don't know, but it can't be dismissed just by arguing that space-time is fixed and things happen within it, because theoretical physicists are far from unanimous about that. More generally, to say that space and/or time "is" fractal tells you nothing without specifics.

[Chillheimer]

...simply based on what I choose to believe due to my lifetime of observations.

perfectly acceptable!
I'm just starting to finally find my way and to make sense of "all this", without anyone(religion, school, tv etc) telling me but only through my personal observations - and in the center of these observations, are (not by my choice) the things that I use to call fractals.

which brings me to an obviously pretty important point.
I get the impression that everyone seems to describe and define fractals in a different way. I realized this just some hours ago, reading through the "fractals in nature"-section here, in one thread there were like 5 totally different definitions of what the word "fractal" descibes for the individual. (sorry, I don't find that thread now)

For you an important point seems to be the infinity that pure, mathematical fractals have.

For me, it doesn't need all mathematical properties 100% to call something fractal.
Self similarity, branching, spirals.. each of these for me are typical for fractals and having only one of them is enough for me to call something "sort of fractal"
I guess you wouldn't..
But that's probably "simply" a meaning of finding a congruent language to describe things..
For me, "fractal" is the family name. Branching, self similarity, spirals, infinty- these are the children or individuals that couldn't exist without the family. And I know they belong to that family when I see them.

There are things in the world which seem to follow fractal rules in their structure, but they are quite finite.  That's the distinction I am trying to draw - the difference between Fractals as a mathematical construct, and real-world objects built with a fractal-like structure.  The two are not identical.  

I second that. I understand your distinction.
I think that mathematical fractals are perfect fractals.

Natural fractals are "imperfect".
I'm starting to think that natural fractals are multifractal(?) meaning that the variables of the equations themselves change in a "fractal", self similar way, especially when external forces come into play
A perfect example might be evolution. With fractal branching and self similarity, responding to external influences like meteorites and friends

My argument is equally nonsensical, faith-based, and unprovable as it's opposite.  Neither one is a topic that can be reduced any further than opinions, intuitions, and guesses.
But this way of seeing things is the world view that makes the most sense to me, and the way I choose to perceive things.

Thank you for sharing!
I was a little afraid of the reactions that my opinion/observations might provoke. But your open answer shows that everyone is somewhat alone out there, trying to make sense of all this.
And although we might see/define things different your answer made me feel good. not really what I was expecting. 

Regards!

ps: thank you xenodreambambulious for focussing on the topic and pointing out 'high brain' evidence. (I'm serious now!) but my brain isn't made for this stuff. I have to be satisfied with my (very!) limited math/physics-knowledge and focus instead on my observations and gut-feelings.
To see that 'serious scientists' are backing some of that stuff is great, even if I could never understand their explanations.

[stereoman]

Hi Chillheimer, glad to find anyone who can understand me, it´s really hard.
So, this is for you, (and for the rest of you all, bunch of materialists)

As far as I've seen, what we call fractals, is the sixth dimension of things.
As we know, a point, generates a line, a line, generates a plane, a plane generates a solid.
But this solid needs to have some extension in time in order to be there, tomorrow, an the next year, the fourth dimension.
We call this, the line of time, yesterday- today- tomorrow, due to time-space geometry, this line follows a curved path,a circle, thus creating the perception plane, where we live, the second dimension of time, and the fifth dimension of space.
But also due to cosmic motion, (the earth following the Sun, the Sun following Sirius and so on) this circular path, with its associated plane, becomes a spiral, this is the third dimension of time, the sixth dimension of space.
Notice that our brains can just perceive three dimensions at a time, and because "As above is below", and the Universe has a fractal, that is, iterative, structure, we can understand what we can´t see trough what we actually see, ie. by analogy, we see that the structure o time (wich we can´t see) must follow the structure of space (wich we see clarly)
Let's see it this way.
Take a 3D pic of a man sitting in a chair.
This image has three dimensions and some extension of time, but this is not enough, nothing happens.
Now we look at the same scene in video, now we have a definite amount of time in the three dimensional scene, but still nothing happens, there's no amount of time enough to change anything.
This means that the fourth dimension is geometry, is time-space,
But for something to happen, we need something more, something that can't be found in the fourth dimension as we have seen.
We need options, this is the fifth dimension.
Now think about a video game in 3D, it has the three dimensions of space, and the three dimensions of time, the game need some amount of time to be played, the fourth dimension, the game has options, without this, we have a 3d movie, but with options we enter a new dimension, literally,since this is the basis of the play.
And here comes the sixth dimension, be patient.
The sixth dimension allows us to play again each time we want, the sixth dimension, as we saw, is the iterative process which allows us to learn from the game and eventually, master it.
Physically, the movie you see in the screen, needs a screen to be seen, this comes from an absolute different dimension than the movie itself.
The commands that allow you to play the game, don't belong to the same dimension tan the monitor where you are playing, or, better said, they symbolize different dimensions.
       

So fractals show us the sixth dimension of things, fractals occur trough time, but are geometry, space.
Iteration is the main fractal process, seen through time, is always a spiral, self repeating ad infinitum.

The full seven dimensional scheme is called a kosmos, wich, in turn, is part of a fractal theme wich includes the macroKosmos, tritoKosmos, and microKosmos, according to ancient greeks, also know as "El heptacordo de Apolo" by romans, the seven chords instrument of Apollo.

[stereoman]

                  It seems to me that there´s an unnoticed inner failure that must be seen.
                 According to general knowledge, the science must discover  the inner laws of the world, for this to be posible, inner laws must exist.
                 But, also according to some "science",there can´t be laws in a world created by an explosión, the fractal structure of our cosmos makes it imposible , since fractals means laws and order.
                  Kaos is the original state of things, or things, before the existence of the kosmos, or maybe, besides it.out of it., kosmos means order.

                  The idea of an Universe created by an explosión, destroys science, destroys all the science known by man, wich was based in the existence of God, whose laws we can learn trough science.
                   There are laws in our kosmos, and they AREN´T, accidental, there are not accidental laws anywhere in the Universe.

[Sockratease]

                  It seems to me that there´s an unnoticed inner failure that must be seen.
                 According to general knowledge, the science must discover  the inner laws of the world, for this to be posible, inner laws must exist.
                 But, also according to some "science",there can´t be laws in a world created by an explosión, the fractal structure of our cosmos makes it imposible , since fractals means laws and order.
                  Kaos is the original state of things, or things, before the existence of the kosmos, or maybe, besides it.out of it., kosmos means order.

                  The idea of an Universe created by an explosión, destroys science, destroys all the science known by man, wich was based in the existence of God, whose laws we can learn trough science.
                   There are laws in our kosmos, and they AREN´T, accidental, there are not accidental laws anywhere in the Universe.

Maybe there are not really any Laws at all.   

These so called "Laws" are still just a really strong Hypothesis, nothing more.  That's why there are so very few of them,  Physics is mostly full of Theorems, Principles, and Tendencies - much more so than Laws.

It's impossible to prove any Law will hold for All Cases as it would take more time than ever was, is, or will be.  Even the alleged Laws Of Physics break down in a Singularity, so there is your exception to the rule, re-introducing Chaos to The Universe at the Very High Iterations of Gravity one finds beyond the event horizon of a black hole.

I see no paradox given that the Laws you are objecting to arising from Chaos break down at a certain point and become meaningless.  They really only apply to The Universe we experience, not to The Rest Of The Universe   

[stereoman]

Maybe there are not really any Laws at all.   

These so called "Laws" are still just a really strong Hypothesis, nothing more.  That's why there are so very few of them,  Physics is mostly full of Theorems, Principles, and Tendencies - much more so than Laws.

It's impossible to prove any Law will hold for All Cases as it would take more time than ever was, is, or will be.  Even the alleged Laws Of Physics break down in a Singularity, so there is your exception to the rule, re-introducing Chaos to The Universe at the Very High Iterations of Gravity one finds beyond the event horizon of a black hole.

I see no paradox given that the Laws you are objecting to arising from Chaos break down at a certain point and become meaningless.  They really only apply to The Universe we experience, not to The Rest Of The Universe   

    we are born and live under laws and nobody can avoid them, I can´t understand your viewpoint, seriously.
    I don´t talk about words, but true laws, it´s a law you must eat to live, and therés really few things you can do about it.
    And so on, the  full Universe exist because of the laws , and where there´s no laws, there is kaos, the opposite to kosmos, there´s no point on this.

[Sockratease]

    we are born and live under laws and nobody can avoid them, I can´t understand your viewpoint, seriously.
    I don´t talk about words, but true laws, it´s a law you must eat to live, and therés really few things you can do about it.
    And so on, the  full Universe exist because of the laws , and where there´s no laws, there is kaos, the opposite to kosmos, there´s no point on this.

These "Laws" don't apply to all things and under all circumstances, so they are really more like guidelines than anything else.  Life is a special case and is so rare in the observable universe that in can be ignored as statistically inconsequential.

Rocks don't need to eat to exist, only that strange - even Chaotic - thing we call Life.

The Laws that structure the universe break down and are not Universal.  In my view this invalidates them and they cannot properly be called Laws at all.

But this is an old argument and has been carried out by people far smarter than either of us, and no conclusion has been agreed upon.   I see Chaos far more than Order in The Universe, especially in those places where The Standard Model of Physics breaks down and stops making sense.

Remember, the Laws under which we are forced to exist are only local - they vary in other parts of the universe, thus : Chaos   

[stereoman]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/83988592@N07/11846156884/

Once, G.I Gurdjieff , told P. Ouspensky the following sentence : "Time is Breath".
  By reference to the approximately 3 seconds it takes the human breathing apparatus and using a factor of 300,000 as multiplier and divider , obtained the figures in the following table .
  The factor is set as a valuable difference from zero to infinity , and is not random at all.
  What the numbers show is that there is an effective relationship between the time of breathing and other times we can measure or references we have , for example, for the Protocosmos times , we find almost exactly the same periods  Hindus attribute to respiration of Brahma, Brahma 's dream , or Brahma´s lifetime .
    These times are also found below the human level. shows an interconnection of all levels of absolutely organic type , to confirm this , note the blue lines indicate logarithmic spirals , the spiral of life .
     The system of the cosmos is not a free invention, it is a way of knowing where we are in an absolutely indescribable universe, levels within levels of " wheels within wheels " because, " As above , so below ."
    Ouspensky numbers have been arranged in this chart so that they make visible internal logarithmic spirals . What we see here is the vibration of life trough the nested structure of the kosmos
     Notice that levels below man have too short lifespan to be perceived, this left the traditional seven cosmos scheme.
    
    

[stereoman]

These "Laws" don't apply to all things and under all circumstances, so they are really more like guidelines than anything else.  Life is a special case and is so rare in the observable universe that in can be ignored as statistically inconsequential.

Rocks don't need to eat to exist, only that strange - even Chaotic - thing we call Life.

The Laws that structure the universe break down and are not Universal.  In my view this invalidates them and they cannot properly be called Laws at all.

But this is an old argument and has been carried out by people far smarter than either of us, and no conclusion has been agreed upon.   I see Chaos far more than Order in The Universe, especially in those places where The Standard Model of Physics breaks down and stops making sense.

Remember, the Laws under which we are forced to exist are only local - they vary in other parts of the universe, thus : Chaos  

Ancient philosophy distinguishes very clearly between kosmos and chaos, at the origin , is chaos, and is the power of intelligence that creates order out of chaos , creating a kosmos .
      Therefore, no one denies the existence of chaos, but it is not a place where a man can live .
      Nor is the basis for anything, so that something makes sense , should be taken out from the crowd and led to the kosmos .
      And there aren´t kosmos without laws , laws define it  .
      Are you sure that the laws that control us are not universal ? , I do not think so, but that idea is diametrically opposed to what fractals show , namely , that the same laws apply up and down. That is precisely the value of the judgment.
      Using logic and common sense along with geometry , it becomes clear that we are not only under a series of laws , we are under many sets of laws , and that indicates we are well down this structure, notes that those under all laws have to suffer more than others, those who are in prison, for example because they live under more laws than you. While other live under less laws.
       Suppose continuity of vibrations, is what says the experience , there can´t be different original laws , there is only one law , to grow and multiply , is generating successive levels of laws , there can´t be anywhere a universe with different laws , I I say this , and you can not prove otherwise , then your argument is irrelevant .
        But let's imagine that there is a universe with different laws , how  does that affect me? , I have to live under these laws, deny , or deny the laws its quality only means that I don´t know where I live , because the laws continue to operate .
       One last point , life is not a special case at all , life is everywhere we look, we've never seen anything that is not alive , that this universe is a living entity,  where do otherwise would come life? .

[stereoman]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9WvBKAK2S9kRMHng5XrPeQ

Take a look at the "Corpo transparente" clip.
Of course, there´s kaos OUTSIDE of the kosmos.

[Sockratease]

Ancient philosophy distinguishes very clearly between kosmos and chaos, at the origin , is chaos, and is the power of intelligence that creates order out of chaos , creating a kosmos .
      Therefore, no one denies the existence of chaos, but it is not a place where a man can live .
      Nor is the basis for anything, so that something makes sense , should be taken out from the crowd and led to the kosmos .
      And there aren´t kosmos without laws , laws define it  .
      Are you sure that the laws that control us are not universal ? , I do not think so, but that idea is diametrically opposed to what fractals show , namely , that the same laws apply up and down. That is precisely the value of the judgment.
      Using logic and common sense along with geometry , it becomes clear that we are not only under a series of laws , we are under many sets of laws , and that indicates we are well down this structure, notes that those under all laws have to suffer more than others, those who are in prison, for example because they live under more laws than you.
       Suppose continuity of vibrations, is what says the experience , there can´t be different original laws , there is only one law , to grow and multiply , is generating successive levels of laws , there can´t be anywhere a universe with different laws , I I say this , and you can not prove otherwise , then your argument is irrelevant .
        But let's imagine that there is a universe with different laws , how  does that affect me? , I have to live under these laws, deny , or deny the laws its quality only means that I don´t know where I live , because the laws continue to operate .
       One last point , life is not a special case at all , life is everywhere we look, we've never seen anything that is not alive , that this universe is a living entity,  where do otherwise would leave life? .

You do realize that you claim most of what I say can not be proven, then make equally unsupportable claims yourself, right?  Who says the universe is alive?  I'd love to see any quantifiable evidence you may have to support that theory.

The laws of physics do indeed break down in areas around and inside black holes.  This is a logical consequence of The Standard Model of Physics, and to deny it means throwing out that model.  It's one of the biggest problems in Cosmology and to dismiss it would require Extraordinary Proof!

And I hate to break your bubble, but life is only prevalent on this one tiny, insignificant, planet.  No life has been found anywhere else in the universe and therefore it is statistically insignificant.

In fact, if one accepts that the universe is infinite, it can be argued that life does not exist anywhere at all.  Consider : In an infinite universe with life existing on any finite number of planets you wind up with a finite number being divided by infinity to determine the ratio of inhabited worlds to uninhabited worlds.

Now, any finite number divided by infinity is always zero and therefore there is no life in the universe at all and any people you happen to meet along the way are merely the product of a deranged imagination.

[stereoman]

Sokratease, tell me, when you go to see an exhibition, you spend the time looking at the empty spaces?

Most likely,we both live in different worlds, since the real world is the inner world, this said, I can only say that MY universe is a living being.
     Judging by your words, yours, no.
     What each man sees must be real.  ( or not ?)
    Anyway, I agree with you in one thing, matter does not exist, but this left spirit alone

[youhn]

Though chaos and order are hard subjects, I think life in general only adds to the chaos. Just look around. Possible all things that start with some kind of nucleus (rivers, bubbles, rain, drops, cracks, cells, crystals, solidification points, embryos, ideas, molecules, stars, galaxies, dunes, flowers, etc) do stand out of the rest of their environment. This brings more diversity in the totality, which I see as chaos. Think of a room with stuff, neatly (humanly) ordered and sorted. Then grind everything to dust and spread evenly. Regardless of the universe around it and even it's own history (of energy flows) ... which situation will qualify as more chaotic ?

Can't we just say that if space is fractal, then time must be the same (since it technically *is* the same) ... ?

About "true laws" ... probably no such thing. Almost every law ever invented or discovered turned out to be just a statistical high probability. How many real laws of nature are left anyway?

[stereoman]

Can't we just say that if space is fractal, then time must be the same (since it technically *is* the same) ... ?

Have you ever heard about "gnomon" ?