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Author Topic: Fractal nature of time  (Read 12504 times)
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stereoman
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 02:18:53 AM »

Well, let´s go back to the main idea, the fractal nature of time.
 Hindú music is based in harmonics, this means that each note contains a full scale, and each note of this inner scale contains a new full scale and so on, to our ears it sounds monotonous, but hindús can perceive those inner scales and found this music full of beauty.
 This is another proof that ancient people knew and use fractals, troath chants with harmonics can be also found in Mongolia,Armenia, and some other countries.
  But  even the Bolero from Ravel has a fractal structure.
  So, time has been "fractalized" in music long time ago.
 
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Sockratease
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 11:58:09 AM »

So, time has been "fractalized" in music long time ago.

I think you are mistaking the canvas for the painting.  If anything, your argument demonstrates that music has been "fractalized" in time long time ago -  Not the other way around.
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 04:22:44 PM »

I think you are mistaking the canvas for the painting.

exactly what i tried to say earlier in this thread.
without doubt every natural fractal has a time component. clouds for example do not appear instantly, they appear over time. and further the form of a cloud strongly depends on how long it took to sculpt. but nothing in this cloud can tell anything about time itself. in simple words: clouds depend on time - time does not depend on clouds!  grin
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:26:19 PM by taurus66 » Logged

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Sockratease
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 08:01:55 PM »

I think you are mistaking the canvas for the painting.
exactly what i tried to say earlier in this thread.

Agreed.  The notion of fractal vs plane seemed to cause confusion, so I tried that phrasing.

And stereoman - I should take a moment to point out that I like your enthusiasm for this, and respect your persistence.

I'm just not at all convinced  (yet).  I'm open to the idea, and if you can devise an argument consistent and unambiguous enough - I'll be the first to admit the possibility. 

Time is, at it's most fundamental level, mysterious and not fully understood.  So I do not deny that you *may* be right. 

But due to the subtle distinction between Things Distributed In Time, and Time Itself, you have a Monumental Task before you!

Remember : Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Proof!
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 08:50:30 PM »

I don't think stereoman is trying to make a scientific argument - only an observation. To say that nothing can be learned about time from watching a cloud - then how was special relativity conceived? Did Einstein see time? No. He saw light and deduced the connection between space and time. We don't get to see the canvas. That said, Stereoman has a lot of math to do before being taken as seriously as Einstein.
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stereoman
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 10:44:45 PM »

I think you are mistaking the canvas for the painting.  If anything, your argument demonstrates that music has been "fractalized" in time long time ago -  Not the other way around.

And I think the same,you are mistaking the canvas for the painting, what ancient people manipulated was time, not music, music is a way to structure time.
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stereoman
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 10:47:35 PM »

exactly what i tried to say earlier in this thread.

Agreed.  The notion of fractal vs plane seemed to cause confusion, so I tried that phrasing.

And stereoman - I should take a moment to point out that I like your enthusiasm for this, and respect your persistence.

I'm just not at all convinced  (yet).  I'm open to the idea, and if you can devise an argument consistent and unambiguous enough - I'll be the first to admit the possibility. 

Time is, at it's most fundamental level, mysterious and not fully understood.  So I do not deny that you *may* be right. 

But due to the subtle distinction between Things Distributed In Time, and Time Itself, you have a Monumental Task before you!

Remember : Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Proof!


OK I will try, but let me say one thing, All it´s Geometry, if I were where you are, I would see what you see, but if you were where I am, you would see what I see.
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stereoman
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 10:54:22 PM »

I don't think stereoman is trying to make a scientific argument - only an observation. To say that nothing can be learned about time from watching a cloud - then how was special relativity conceived? Did Einstein see time? No. He saw light and deduced the connection between space and time. We don't get to see the canvas. That said, Stereoman has a lot of math to do before being taken as seriously as Einstein.

You´re right, I talk about what I see, I can´t do the maths, but here are a lot of people that can, What I can do is to explain what I see because I´ve been trained for this, from an artist´s viewpoint, it´s really interesting to discover that "fractalism" is hidden behind a lot of art forms, like the Matrioskas from Russia, the nested puppets.
  Or behind the gothic cathedrals, The hindú temples and a lot of artwork playing with mirrors, I even heard of a room covered by small mirrors and lighted with candles with millions of reflections, this must have been something amzing to see, and this all was done by ancient artist that understood the fractal nature of this Universe.
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stereoman
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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2012, 02:13:44 AM »

  C´mon.
  One day, a man told to others that Earth was circling around the sun, it was so difficult to believe such a thing that, even today we talk as if the sun moved around us.
   It´s the same with time, all your assumptions are based in the passing of time, but, acording to Einstein, Time is Geometry, and Geometry can´t flow, Time, as space, can´t pass.
    Then follows that we move trough time.
     And this changes all.

     Take two cities, linked by a road, our perception is a car in this road, leaving th first city, at this moment, the other city is in the future of the car, while the road is simultaneously in the two cities, and is there ever, the only time that can be measured is the time taken by the car in his displacement, if there´s no car, there´s no measureable time.
      So, it follows that passing time is a condition of our perception, let´s say, our perception turns unperceived space into time for us, but time itself its only space.


       I will follow, but I would like to hear you before.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2012, 10:07:09 AM »

Wow - 4 posts in a row!

But I am still nowhere near convinced.

And I think the same,you are mistaking the canvas for the painting, what ancient people manipulated was time, not music, music is a way to structure time.

I can't agree with that at all.  Music has zero effect on time.  Sorry.

Time exhibits absolutely no fractal properties that we can observe.  Time is geometry, but not all geometry is fractal.

In music I see time as the "iterator" - nothing more.  Fractals need iterations but those iterations are not fractal.  Iterations create fractals, but are not themselves fractal (The Creator does not create itself).

If I were to try and structure an argument in favor of the fractal nature of time I would leave out any units of time which we can measure and focus on durations below the Heisenberg Limit.  It is said that much weirdness happens in those tiny intervals of time.

Sounds like a better place to seek chaos than any units of time we can observe.
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« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 06:02:53 PM »

There is just few shure known physical processes who deffinetely are fractal;)

Hofstadter's butterfly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter's_butterfly



and
Kolmogorov–Arnold–Moser tori

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov%E2%80%93Arnold%E2%80%93Moser_theorem
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stereoman
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2012, 10:47:51 PM »

Well, I will stop it here, it has been my fault, I had some idea, but without mastering the language this only can lead to confussion.
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Alef
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« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2012, 07:27:47 PM »

IMHO only time being fractal would be a jewish religious time. Week have seven days with the weekend - sabbath at the end. After 6 years, seventh is considered sabbath year, and 7x7= 49th year is some supersabbath year. So according to religious laws, land must go fallow in each 7th (sabbath) year.

Not a physical time, but still somewhat fractal concept;)
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stereoman
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« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2012, 11:50:55 PM »

      Hi all, this is to announce that I´ve started a series of animations around the time geometry concept in my site.
      I hope I´m not spamming, but I don´t want to upload this stuff to YouTube or any other site , at least until the whole series be finished.
      But people here interested in this thread can find it interesting enough, I think.
      I´ve done it in spanish language, but images are self explanatory most of time.
      The first animation can be found in the page labeled NOVEDADES.
      I hope my viewpoints will be clearly exposed, maybe then we can share some toughts.
      Best to all.
      my site.  www.sargodeatargatis.es
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 11:59:49 PM by stereoman » Logged
Chillheimer
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« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2013, 11:55:25 AM »

--again, I bring up an old topic, but I don't think everything has been said, so here I go again
and after all, if time IS fractal, than it's just natural that similar shape--..topics come up from ..ehh.. time to time  -- wink

Stereoman, I totally share your view and don't think you're lost but on the exact correct path.
I think that most scientists (and many users here) focus too much on the pure science and what can be directly seen&measured, or on what is the current "accepted view of reality".
Don't let the usual blocks and barriers (that the micro-view on fractals of most people produce), discourage yourself!

I certainly don't mean to offense to "most people" with a different view! This is just my personal opinion - after all discussions would be quite boring if everyone thought the same wink )

I believe that "fractal thinking" needs to go even further - but you have to sharpen your view and be open to recognize the fractal patterns in things that are not optical. And then, it's not easy to explain these thing scientifically - at least for me.
I would for example say that the way my cat leaves the house everyday and the different choices are clearly fractal branching, influenced by external circumstances. But I'm not the kind of guy who is able to explain this in a 100% agreeable way (if that is possible at all).

Would you mind giving an update, where is your thinking at the moment, about two years later? (I'm german and can't speak spanish, the videos on your site that I can find won't load..)

"As above, so is below" is a statement used in religious dogma, I have never heard it used in any serious Scientific argument.
If you really think that, what exactly are we doing in this forum? Isn't this sentence in a way the essence of fractals??

If we stay in the analogy: the fully zoomed out mandelbrot, zoomed out so far that you only see an evanescent point, a singularity - the zoom in is the big bang. I don't see any contradictions here..

Cheers everybody!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 04:35:48 PM by Chillheimer » Logged

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