Title: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DomJustDom on April 14, 2011, 01:48:24 PM Hi there!
I'm just new to the forum and I have a problem. I wrote a Program that displays a 4D-Mandelbrot based on an own Formula. The Forms looked quite beautiful. This Program is not done yet and it's written in OpenGL. Since I'm in an early stage of developing I didn't see much of how the formulas fractal turns out. When I was googling around I found this forum here. I just discovered Mudelbulb and I thought: "Wow what a Program!" But as I asked in meet and greet forums they told me it is difficult to enter an own formula there. That was there: http://www.fractalforums.com/meet-and-greet/hi-and-hello-there-from-germany (http://www.fractalforums.com/meet-and-greet/hi-and-hello-there-from-germany) Basically the idea of this formula is quite simple: I invented a Complex number j that is j*j=-i. This leads to the Complex number k which simply is k:=j*i. The Formula Z=Z2+C turns then out this way:
So, anybody there who can convert this, or tell me how to do so? If you got any questions, suggestions, ... feel free to post! :happy: Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 14, 2011, 06:43:10 PM Hi there.
The formula you wrote looks like a quaternion, but some terms look odd, for example that "+a" ... (the final result should be like a normal quaternion in the form z=z*z+z+c or something like) Could you show us a render of your fractal? You can upload images on; www.tinypic.com :) Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DomJustDom on April 14, 2011, 06:55:08 PM I really really would like to show you a render of this Fractal. (!) But I guess it's not implemented in the standard mandelbulb Program.
The Program I write isn't finished yet. But I'm looking forward to complete it. Do you know any program where you can write custom formulas? Or can you create this Formula for mandelbulb or show me how to do so? In the end, as far as I could see it, it looked like the classical Mandelbrot but in 4D. Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 14, 2011, 07:20:26 PM I really really would like to show you a render of this Fractal. (!) But I guess it's not implemented in the standard mandelbulb Program. It seemed that you rendered already something with your new program... Have you got an image, even raw/awful of this fractal? ^-^The Program I write isn't finished yet. But I'm looking forward to complete it. Do you know any program where you can write custom formulas? Yes, it is possible to render it in ChaosPro for example. I am sure that M.Benesi will be happy to help you in a quick code of this formula, good to do a test render of it. ^-^ I am not expert of Chaos Pro... Basically I hate it :embarrass: I write formulas for MB3D but since I can not translate every single possible formula for it I need to see an image of it before beginning so if your formula really deserves a translation I will do! Too bad a Mandelbulb formula must be hand coded in assembly so I don't do this if I am not sure of the result ^-^ Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 14, 2011, 10:43:14 PM i have two questions... :)
Do you mean + Ca, + Cb i ... at the end instead of + a and + b i ...? And you add + b (or Cb) in line 3 or should it be + c (or Cc)? Same for line 4 but one one character higher. If you want to add C instead, the CommQuat formula is very similar, only some signs seems to be different. greets ps: such simple formulas are not that difficult and time intensive to make for me, in case Luca is overloaded with work :dink: Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 14, 2011, 11:26:46 PM If only signs differ, can use scalingplus to fix em? :)
But it screws up +c :) Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Kali on April 14, 2011, 11:50:32 PM ps: such simple formulas are not that difficult and time intensive to make for me, in case Luca is overloaded with work :dink: Still waiting for that KaliLinComb axis switch :'( Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 14, 2011, 11:51:22 PM Unfortunately the signs differ are only for some parts of the formula, not a whole dimension.
But i tried the formula with C added and it was not very different from the CommQuat formula. Also the formula with a,b,c and d added showed up some interesting shapes, that might be a nice addition for combinations. Just Julias won't work without adding C... Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 14, 2011, 11:55:11 PM ps: such simple formulas are not that difficult and time intensive to make for me, in case Luca is overloaded with work :dink: Still waiting for that KaliLinComb axis switch :'( Huh? Think i have missed something, or i thought an axis switch is not really important :hmh: But in the next version i will include the _Flip.. formulas with additional option to switch also C, maybe that can do it? Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 15, 2011, 12:07:40 AM NocJesse it is very important to make hybrids workccorrectly, please :D
Before beginning to code this formula look if it can be done with my MandyCousin, I am far from my pc now Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Syntopia on April 15, 2011, 12:13:54 AM Using the following multiplication:
Code: vec4 mul(vec4 a, vec4 b) {I got the attached picture (for the Mandelbrot type system, with fourth component = 0) These square Mandelbrots are very similar to the ones you get using Tessarines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarine). I might have one or two wrong signs, though :-) Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 15, 2011, 12:18:56 AM NocJesse it is very important to make hybrids workccorrectly, please :D Before beginning to code this formula look if it can be done with my MandyCousin, I am far from my pc now The problem with KaliLinComb formula was, that it uses buffers for some axis what makes combinations with other formulas nearly impossible :sad1: With the rest of formulas there should be no big problem in combinations :) Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Kali on April 15, 2011, 12:38:30 AM I got the attached picture (for the Mandelbrot type system, with fourth component = 0) These square Mandelbrots are very similar to the ones you get using Tessarines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarine). I might have one or two wrong signs, though :-) That looks definitely like KaliLinComb! I would like to explore the detailed parts closer to confirm that... @Jesse, the axis switch was asked to you by Luca, just for trying to get better combinations with other M formulas. Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DomJustDom on April 15, 2011, 01:00:10 AM Cool, you went on.
This looks quite good there, but I meant more this way:
The idea behind it is simply: j*j=-i j*i=k Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Syntopia on April 15, 2011, 06:50:45 AM Cool, you went on. This looks quite good there, but I meant more this way:
The idea behind it is simply: j*j=-i j*i=k I used Z=Z^2+C, together with the multiplication table you posted earlier: Quote R i j k R +1 i j k i i -1 k -j j j k -1 -i k k -j -i +1 In that table j*j=-1. Knowing how to square a number isn't enough for my approach. I use an analytical distance estimator, which requires multiplication of arbitrary numbers. Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 15, 2011, 10:42:56 AM Images at first :P ^-^
Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DomJustDom on April 15, 2011, 01:04:05 PM First of all thanks for all your support.
I'm really glad that you all took your time and effort to help me with this. But I'm sorry to say that I made some mistakes with the formulas. I hope this is not to problematic for you. So here the first mistake: The formula table is meant as Zn+1=Zn2+C The square was missing and 2cd is not 2cd, is what I just discovered but -2cdi. I had there a mistake in my own formula table as well.
The idea behind it is still: i*i=-1 j*j=-i j*i=k So to correct the table i wrote in "Meet+Greet" would look like this:
I hope this is now finally correct. But if you still find a mistake, feel free to post. Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 15, 2011, 04:32:43 PM First of all thanks for all your support. I'm really glad that you all took your time and effort to help me with this. But I'm sorry to say that I made some mistakes with the formulas. I hope this is not to problematic for you. So here the first mistake: The formula table is meant as Zn+1=Zn2+C The square was missing and 2cd is not 2cd, is what I just discovered but -2cdi. I had there a mistake in my own formula table as well.
The idea behind it is still: i*i=-1 j*j=-i j*i=k So to correct the table i wrote in "Meet+Greet" would look like this:
I hope this is now finally correct. But if you still find a mistake, feel free to post. But the formula is very pretty as is, why you wanna mutate? ;D Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 15, 2011, 04:59:20 PM Okay. I tried your "correction" but it pretty much ruins all the effect, producing an awful spiky aspect
Attached image. The correction will be an option :dink: Ah... I can't write the formula for yourself so decide by yourself :police: Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 15, 2011, 10:21:11 PM
The idea behind it is still: i*i=-1 j*j=-i j*i=k So to correct the table i wrote in "Meet+Greet" would look like this:
I hope this is now finally correct. But if you still find a mistake, feel free to post. Hi, thanks for the correction, still two questions: :) The added C component should be ac, bic, cjc and dkc, i guess. But what i really want to know because i am no mathematician: I understand the basic idea, but how do you get the values for the combinations below, does them follow some rules?: i*k=-j j*k=-i k*k=i This question arose when i asked myself how to implement i*j in 3d, if no k is available. So, if there is no strict rule, maybe we need for every new combination another dimension, until such terms becomes nil and can be neglected... Maybe a stupid question, but my basic interest ist also to get something like the holy grail :dink: :beer: Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Syntopia on April 15, 2011, 11:20:09 PM i*i=-1 j*j=-i j*i=k I understand the basic idea, but how do you get the values for the combinations below, does them follow some rules?: i*k=-j j*k=-i k*k=i This question arose when i asked myself how to implement i*j in 3d, if no k is available. So, if there is no strict rule, maybe we need for every new combination another dimension, until such terms becomes nil and can be neglected... Maybe a stupid question, but my basic interest ist also to get something like the holy grail :dink: :beer: You would probably have to make some assumptions to arive at that multiplication matrix. One assumption could be that multiplication was commutative (A*B=B*A). This would imply the multiplication matrix was symmetric (Notice Quaternion multiplication is not commutative). Another assumption could be that multiplication is asociative: A*(B*C)=(A*B)*C Based on these assumptions you get: Code: i*i=-1 Code: j*i=k Code: j*i=k Notice, that I get j*k=1 instead of -1. (So DomJustDom's system is not associative) You could also impose more constraints on the multiplication operator: for instance, you could require that for every number X, there exists an inverse element Y, such that X*Y=1. This would make it possible to define division. The only four component system satisfying this property, is the Quaternions. And no such system exists for three components. Of course, you do not need division (or associativity, or commutativity) to implement a Mandelbrot-like formula. You could just make up a multiplication table and explore the possibilities. Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DomJustDom on April 16, 2011, 12:56:33 AM OK, back again.
Hey, I really can say this is a way cool Forum, because everybody here is quite helpful and polite. So thanks again. I had a lot to do today, but I'm back. So, I'm not a mathematician and the idea is quite simple. But if someone please would check this table. I worked it out in c++. (Qt to be exact) Since it was almost no effort i coloured the table a little. Hoping the program doesn't make the same mistakes, as the programmer did... ;D So the final (first) table should look like this: (There is no secret behind it. It's just the idea of inventing a number j that j*j is -i.)
There are two more tables I want to post. And just to say this, you are all welcome to check it for mistakes. Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 16, 2011, 01:04:45 AM You would probably have to make some assumptions to arive at that multiplication matrix. One assumption could be that multiplication was commutative (A*B=B*A). This would imply the multiplication matrix was symmetric (Notice Quaternion multiplication is not commutative). Another assumption could be that multiplication is asociative: A*(B*C)=(A*B)*C Based on these assumptions you get: Code: i*i=-1 Code: j*i=k Code: j*i=k Great Syntopia, thank you very much! So this is straight forward, just non commutativity and/or assoviativity leads to more variations, but i guess a fourth dimension is recommended anyways... Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DomJustDom on April 16, 2011, 01:39:05 AM Whoof...Okay.
It's difficult for me to get all this. To be honest my english is a little weak, and all I did was mathematics at the high school / college. So I have a question depending to this. Did anybody ever hear about such a system? I guess this all would be easier in case somebody just posts a wikipedia-link. Or should I ask / post this somewhere else? By the way, here the next two Tables:
In the end this seems to be the right formula. So please let me know, weather you can hack this into any fractal program. I really would like to see the result! Thanks a lot, Dom Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: M Benesi on April 16, 2011, 06:55:03 AM Very squary....
Code: nx=sqr(sx)-sqr(sy)+2*sz*sk; Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Syntopia on April 16, 2011, 08:30:44 AM DomJustDom, if you want to try out different schemes you could use Fragmentarium: http://syntopia.github.com/Fragmentarium/
Use the following code, and modify the 'mul' function according to how the two numbers multiply: Code: #include "DE-Raytracer.frag" Fragmentarium requires a decent GPU (e.g. not an integrated GPU), capable of running GLSL. But you can explore in real-time :-) Btw, the only 4-component systems I know are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coquaternion Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 16, 2011, 10:06:43 AM In the end this seems to be the right formula. So please let me know, weather you can hack this into any fractal program. I really would like to see the result! Thanks a lot, Dom No need to hack, because your formula is already in my database, don't you have installed it yet? What you are waiting for? :evil1: ;D Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: Jesse on April 16, 2011, 01:47:32 PM I made general formula where the user can specify the combinations of i,j and k.
I think many combinations makes no real sense, but still a lot of combinations possible, plus the 4d rotations... 8^8 * 4d rotate - good luck :D formula download: http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg28944#msg28944 (http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg28944#msg28944) Title: Re: New to Madelbulb: Can sombody help me with a formula? Post by: DarkBeam on April 16, 2011, 04:32:33 PM I made general formula where the user can specify the combinations of i,j and k. I think many combinations makes no real sense, but still a lot of combinations possible, plus the 4d rotations... 8^8 * 4d rotate - good luck :D formula download: http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg28944#msg28944 (http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg28944#msg28944) Oh no! This is striking Jessie :toast: |