Title: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 01, 2014, 02:14:58 AM thank you all for your immense participation, a new record in nearly every part, most contributions, most votings, from "just" 63 contributors, anyways, thank you all for keeping the spirit alive,
here are the first 3 of each section with links to the full results: and this year taurus is again taking the first place in 2 sections! congratulations! and congratulations to user pulsar for making it first place in the resemblance section, you have well earned your coffee cups with your images, please contact me in private mail to provide your adresses (yes, taurus as well ;) so i dont have to search ooooold mails ) congrats to the winners and congrats to everyone who contributed making this another great event and thank you to all you voters with more than 4000 votes we did a new record this year! "comment" i am so pleased about the 7th compo in a row, and i hope to let it grow even more next year, feel free to provide ideas for next years "free" competition, in general i was happy about many contributions to that resemblance compo but i think you (we) could have done better, was it because the topic was too wide spread !? shall i use a more restricted third section next year, like last years axolotl ? i am just saying, because not much effort was put into really resembling something, not any tweak of the axolotl, just a few forest scenes, please help us providing the best competition layout that produces most interesting outcome, anyways the short film section seemed to have worked very well, some immense sweet productions where submitted, and the classic still frame produced as well nice results, so hope you all join in next year again, thank you all for contribution "2nd comment about counting system" as we have this year the situation that people with lower average voting won, and to avoid any discussion: it is the gneral user interaction that counts, so average voting is not relevant for the ranking, because one single vote of 5 stars could outnumber an entry with hundrets of five star votings and just a single 4 star voting would place it below the single 5 star voting, this is like it is. although i have a voting system in my pocket for over a year i had no time to analyse it and present it to you, perhaps i am discussing it over the course of the year, but for this year you have to live with that, participating is everything - never forget that, and again thank you to all contributors (voters and posters!) :beer: Still Frame
Link to full results for "still frame": http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=19579.0 Short Film
Link to full results for "short film" http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=19580.0 Resemblance
Link to full results for "resemblance" http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=19581.0 Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 01, 2014, 10:46:19 AM My sincere and heartfelt congratulations to all the winners.
I am very proud to be part of a great community of Fractal enthusiasts that continue to inspire me. Even though the rules are clearly stated and they are repeated here as a commentary note, I must say I have mixed feelings about the voting system. Obviously some of this comes from the frustration that I didn’t finish first (second is still great), but these feelings are not from today, and existed long before the votes were counted. My main problem here is that for a reason which I don’t understand, the system seems to be designed to award the person with the largest network, instead of judging the piece on its intrinsic merit. The moderator defends this system with an example: a hypothetical situation where a single 5 star vote would outperform a hundred 5 star votes plus a 4 star vote. That this is an unwanted situation is obvious, but is seems very simple to overcome this problem by imposing a threshold. Hypothetically, a million 1 star votes would outweigh any other entry in the forum, while it is unlikely that those million people giving it 1 star (the lowest possible rating) meant to give it credit. However in the current system this abysmal entry would win by a landslide. And this is where things really break down. If you’re merely counting stars, the lowest possible rating isn’t 1 star, but 0 stars, which are awarded to anything you’re not voting for. So by not voting for something you’re basically saying it’s even worse than one a pitiful entry you voted 1 star. Paradoxically, anybody with the absolute intent to win is discouraged to vote for anything in his or her own section at all, since you can’t vote for yourself. Let me explain. Even if you award every other entry just one star, you’re still helping the others one star up, while leaving yourself at 0. Not voting is the best strategy. What? In statistics, the difference between a sample group of 5 or 20 can be huge, but the difference between 50 and 200 much less, since the more data you gather, the more it trends towards the average. If you’re only adding up, it’s the size of the sample group that counts, which goes up linear, and never evens out. In my unsatisfying example this explains the significant difference between average stars (88% vs. 95%) and amount of stars (145 vs. 128) I haven’t used these tactics myself. I have voted for each entry in the sections Resemblance and Short Film (where I participated) and not skipped a single entry. I didn't start voting on the Still Frame section, because I knew it would only be fair to vote for EACH one, and I didn't have the time. It’s fairer not to vote then to vote for only some. It might be blatantly obvious that I am upset to have to yield first place to Taurus, which is by no means undeserved (I thought ‘Waterbreathing’ was phenomenal and awarded it the appropriate 5 stars), but frustrating because the average rating of my “Dream/Iterate” is significantly higher, and because I think the voting system is fundamentally flawed. Likewise, the other entries that were awarded a higher average rating but a (statistically insignificant) lower sample size should rise to the top. The moderator himself seems to be well aware of these issues and proposes to introduce a new system next year. My only question is why he hasn’t yet. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 01, 2014, 11:18:06 AM My sincere and heartfelt congratulations to all the winners. I am very proud to be part of a great community of Fractal enthusiasts that continue to inspire me. Even though the rules are clearly stated and they are repeated here as a commentary note, I must say I have mixed feelings about the voting system. Obviously some of this comes from the frustration that I didn’t finish first (second is still great), but these feelings are not from today, and existed long before the votes were counted. My main problem here is that for a reason which I don’t understand, the system seems to be designed to award the person with the largest network, instead of judging the piece on its intrinsic merit. The moderator defends this system with an example: a hypothetical situation where a single 5 star vote would outperform a hundred 5 star votes plus a 4 star vote. That this is an unwanted situation is obvious, but is seems very simple to overcome this problem by imposing a threshold. Hypothetically, a million 1 star votes would outweigh any other entry in the forum, while it is unlikely that those million people giving it 1 star (the lowest possible rating) meant to give it credit. However in the current system this abysmal entry would win by a landslide. And this is where things really break down. If you’re merely counting stars, the lowest possible rating isn’t 1 star, but 0 stars, which are awarded to anything you’re not voting for. So by not voting for something you’re basically saying it’s even worse than one a pitiful entry you voted 1 star. Paradoxically, anybody with the absolute intent to win is discouraged to vote for anything in his or her own section at all, since you can’t vote for yourself. Let me explain. Even if you award every other entry just one star, you’re still helping the others one star up, while leaving yourself at 0. Not voting is the best strategy. What? In statistics, the difference between a sample group of 5 or 20 can be huge, but the difference between 50 and 200 much less, since the more data you gather, the more it trends towards the average. If you’re only adding up, it’s the size of the sample group that counts, which goes up linear, and never evens out. In my unsatisfying example this explains the significant difference between average stars (88% vs. 95%) and amount of stars (145 vs. 128) I haven’t used these tactics myself. I have voted for each entry in the sections Resemblance and Short Film (where I participated) and not skipped a single entry. I didn't start voting on the Still Frame section, because I knew it would only be fair to vote for EACH one, and I didn't have the time. It’s fairer not to vote then to vote for only some. It might be blatantly obvious that I am upset to have to yield first place to Taurus, which is by no means undeserved (I thought ‘Waterbreathing’ was phenomenal and awarded it the appropriate 5 stars), but frustrating because the average rating of my “Dream/Iterate” is significantly higher, and because I think the voting system is fundamentally flawed. Likewise, the other entries that were awarded a higher average rating but a (statistically insignificant) lower sample size should rise to the top. The moderator himself seems to be well aware of these issues and proposes to introduce a new system next year. My only question is why he hasn’t yet. Sadly, All voting systems are fundamentally flawed. Some moreso than others, but all can be exploited or give unsatisfactory results (just look at any election in America for proof!). In fact, in his Philosophical and Political Blockbuster Hit "The Republic" - Plato himself decries Democracy as the worst possible form of Government, akin to Mob Rule. He says even a Dictatorship is better. One idea I had was to make voting for every entry Mandatory for all entrants. This wont remove problems like those you mention, but it can help. Sadly, there will never be a system everybody is happy with, so we just do as you did - accept it for what it is and if we have better ideas, we voice them. As for your point about "judging the piece on its intrinsic merit" - surely you realize that's impossible as everybody will have a different point of view on that. That's why many such contests have a Judge or group of Judges who do just that and one's popularity can never effect results. The problem with that is nobody gets to vote for anything or participate in the selection process at all. Maybe Anonymous entries could alleviate that? There are many things to consider, but ultimately I believe since no objective system is possible - that any system is as good as any other as long as it's clearly explained and understood. Maybe we should have a vote on what voting process to use next year? :clown: Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 01, 2014, 11:41:33 AM either use no voting system at all or be absolutely sure what the "new" system does, the new system is going to introduce a magical number that works with an exponent to weight the number of votes more over the total count, BUT as you told that bigger networks are rewarded, i am really not sure if it does not even overcomplicate it, i did not introduce it just because the discussion about this magic number i am really really really afraid of on one hand it has to be introduced and on the next hand is has to be discussed which value it should become
i am preparing a comparison, with old, classic and new system taking into account all votes on compos we held, so this is going to be a tedious work and i do not really beliefe if it really works, lol so what would your direct modification to a voting system like we have here ?! at least it is community based and not based on a stupid jury several possibilities occur, perhaps demand from every contestant to vote, and JUST the contestants perhaps ?! i dunno, lets just sit back and enjoy the immense work that has been published throughout the contest and perhaps taurus is even going to give the first price to you, because he basically has already a cup with exact that object ;) Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 01, 2014, 11:46:33 AM Sadly, All voting systems are fundamentally flawed. Although I respect your position in defending the current system I think it is lazy to do so by simply stating that all the alternatives are also bad. They may well be, but they’re definitely not equally bad. The democratic system has improved much since Plato’s time. To propose a couple of simple ways to make the voting more balanced: A. Simply count averages, and impose a threshold of 10 or 20 votes minimal. B. Each forum member is automatically assigned 3 stars to all entries, and so can change this by downvoting to 1 or 2, or upvoting to 4 or 5. Both these systems have the merit that as a contestant it is valid to attract extra attention, but only helps if those extra voters raise the average. – as opposed to now, where it doesn’t matter what those extra voters give you. They also don’t discourage any calculating contestant to vote for their own section. I’m sure some can come up with a lot of better ideas. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 01, 2014, 11:55:51 AM nice ideas, this might really work, i personally dont like the 5 star voting system either, it is a flaw but this is basically due to the lazynes of introducing something own, which would
induce a rewrite of the gallery voting system, or even creating a new voting system totally aside of the gallery, and i could do that - yes - it means a little work and set up but i am thinking about making a special part for the voting system, where all entries are shown on a single page ( or at least far more than just one ) to make it easier for people to vote, it would be nice to have a high quality design for the compo and another section, i might really do that what voting system i personally prefer you ask ? in my eye a single thumb up / thumb down would create the best average result, and would relieve the voters from thinking too much about how to exactly vote, so either like it, hate it, or have no meaning on it i like the 3 star system for every user, this would basically come down to placing a single sql query on the database as soon as the competition starts, and allowing people to change their ratings, i like that but at the end we need to come down to exactly one voting system and as i said i promise to discuss that and place a voting about the voting system :) Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 01, 2014, 11:59:15 AM Although I respect your position in defending the current system I think it is lazy to do so by simply stating that all the alternatives are also bad. They may well be, but they’re definitely not equally bad. The democratic system has improved much since Plato’s time. I wasn't defending the current system, I was disparaging all systems! They also don’t discourage any calculating contestant to vote for their own section. I’m sure some can come up with a lot of better ideas. Actually, I don't think the gallery allows anybody to vote for their own images. Not sure if that's what you meant, but at least self-voting is already covered. I hope we can find a system which everybody likes. Sadly, we all know that will never happen. Personally, I like the idea of anonymous entries to minimize the "popularity effect" and maybe enforce a vote for everybody or nobody rule to avoid any need to average out the votes (since every entry should have the same number of votes that way). Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: taurus on July 01, 2014, 12:11:09 PM First of all, I'd like to thank all participants for the hard competition. and many thanks to all, who voted for my entry!
My main problem here is that for a reason which I don’t understand, the system seems to be designed to award the person with the largest network, instead of judging the piece on its intrinsic merit. Dear Julius, I honestly share your scepticism about the fairness of the voting system and I also think, that I could only outperform your submission, because I mobilised some channels on facebook. Technically, I can't get even close to your fantastic story, you told in your video. But also honestly, I don't really feel bad about this. The term "largest network" in this case sounds ridicoulous. We had 27 and 33 votes - nothing about this is large at all. We are talking about a very special kind of animation movie - not about film making in general. I'm working almost completely with open source software on a single machine, no render-farm, no after effects and nevertheless I had a chance, because it is also about uniqueness and creativity in fractal-generation and animation and theese are my advantages. We are a fist full of freaks doing strange stuff. Nothing serious about it. But I share your whish, to find a more equal rating system. maybe the mathematicians here can help to find a statistically equal solution... Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 01, 2014, 12:18:18 PM Actually, I don't think the gallery allows anybody to vote for their own images. Not sure if that's what you meant, but at least self-voting is already covered. No I don’t think you get my point. My point is this: Precisely because you’re not allowed voting for yourself you’re discouraged to vote altogether. To illustrate this, let’s assume at one point in the voting process everybody has the same amount of total stars (rating) 50. Now let’s assume I’m a contestant, and I haven’t voted yet. I start voting for everybody, except myself because I can’t. After my lengthy voting session, some will have 55, some 54, etc. and some even 51 stars. (the one I only awarded a single star) But at the very bottom am I: with only 50 stars. So by voting I’m helping everybody except myself, effectively pushing myself down further. Had I refrained from voting altogether, had I still been on par with the rest: 50. This is what I mean with a system that discourages contestants from voting. Of course, if EVERY contestant would vote for all entries except their own, it would be fair again, since everybody would share the same disadvantage. But it takes just one cunning contestant who decides not to vote to be at a major but unfair advantage. I hope I illustrated this point well. Another closely related point and then I’ll shut up about it: Imagine a contestant posting on Facebook and moving his friends to vote for his entry. Let’s assume that this crowd is a loyal one, and they’re all awarding the highest rating to their beloved friend while ignoring the rest. This is perfectly legitimate, and it probably happens all the time in contests around the globe. Now let’s assume that all these friends not only assign their friend the 5 stars, but also award each other contestant the lowest rating of one star. This would be a questionable practice, and most of us would refrain from doing that or even condemn it. But in essence this is what happens, even though the friends are oblivious to it. By voting for your friend while ignoring the rest you are awarding them 0 stars each, plummeting their position, only repairable by getting their friends and family, etc. It becomes thus a popularity contest. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: pulsar69 on July 01, 2014, 12:19:07 PM Totally agree for a new voting system.
-Anonymous entry could be a good thing. -A 3 star to everyone or the general idea of a vote for everybody or nobody is absolutely necessary IMHO. -Perhaps 5 star is not enough selective, i would rather like a 10 stars/points system. -only register user for "a minimum time" before the contest are allowed to vote. And sure there is no perfect system ! And most important thanx for all your work and to manage this contest for the fractal communauty ! Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 01, 2014, 12:22:31 PM it is going to change, we have some good ideas here, perhaps we really find the time to create a nice layout, and an overview page, so that if you vote, you need to vote for EVERY entry, for this i am going to create a special page with an overview of what one has voted for so that it helps fulfilling the - vote for everything - part, this sounds like a good method, doesnt it ?
Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: taurus on July 01, 2014, 12:27:55 PM Precisely because you’re not allowed voting for yourself you’re discouraged to vote altogether. that's a good point, but who will hinder someone to only vote for his own entry? anonymous voting might make it a bit more equal, but I can still advertise my own work in other social media, so when I'm clever the people will know who did the work Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 01, 2014, 01:17:53 PM First of all, I'd like to thank all participants for the hard competition. and many thanks to all, who voted for my entry! Dear Julius, I honestly share your scepticism about the fairness of the voting system and I also think, that I could only outperform your submission, because I mobilised some channels on facebook. Technically, I can't get even close to your fantastic story, you told in your video. But also honestly, I don't really feel bad about this. The term "largest network" in this case sounds ridicoulous. We had 27 and 33 votes - nothing about this is large at all. We are talking about a very special kind of animation movie - not about film making in general. I'm working almost completely with open source software on a single machine, no render-farm, no after effects and nevertheless I had a chance, because it is also about uniqueness and creativity in fractal-generation and animation and theese are my advantages. We are a fist full of freaks doing strange stuff. Nothing serious about it. But I share your whish, to find a more equal rating system. maybe the mathematicians here can help to find a statistically equal solution... Dear Torsten, Congrats again, and I by no means feel resentful by being beaten by your wonderful piece, which I myself though was mesmerizing indeed. Neither do I think that it’s wrong to mobilize your network to help you with votes. There’s nothing large indeed between the difference between 27 and 33, at least statistically. In the linear counting system the difference is huge: anywhere between 6 and 30 points. I agree with your point that it’s nice that somebody with less access to resources such as cpu power or expensive software has equal opportunity. Again, completely deserved in this case. that's a good point, but who will hinder someone to only vote for his own entry? When counting averages this is no issue at all, since only voting for yourself, (or voting for everybody else but yourself) doesn’t skew the numbers that much. Another way to put it, in an average system voting can be both down and up. In the current system you can ONLY vote up.To be clear: I’m not proposing that voting for yourself should be allowed, since this would indeed be prone to abuse. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: haltenny on July 01, 2014, 03:10:40 PM Congratulations to all the winners! I would be totally against being required to vote for every single entry. It's hard enough to get people to vote in the first place, and that would only make it harder. I would suggest requiring all entrants to cast a vote for first, second and third place in whatever category they enter. First place vote gets 5 points, second place gets 3 and third place gets 1 point. Total points tally wins. If you limit the voting to just people that enter a category, that will more or less eliminate outside influence such as social networks.
I don't think you should be able to vote for yourself under any circumstances or set of rules. I'm sure Christian had the voting system in place before the competition and anyone could have asked about it. Complaining about it after the fact is just... sour grapes in my opinion. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 01, 2014, 11:55:09 PM ... I mobilised some channels on facebook... Here is a good reason that many art contests demand only new entries not previously shown elsewhere, and that entries not be posted anywhere else until the contest is over. This, combined with anonymous entries, would curtail the bulk of that effect. Sure, a direct link to the entry could be posted to circumvent that rule - but we could make that disallowed too, and disqualify any participant who does so. Not that we'd actively police that - I avoid facebook like the plague that I perceive it to be - but we could act if such activity is reported. Of course, this idea doesn't work with videos - they are all hosted externally :( Now let’s assume I’m a contestant, and I haven’t voted yet. I start voting for everybody, except myself because I can’t. After my lengthy voting session, some will have 55, some 54, etc. and some even 51 stars. (the one I only awarded a single star) But at the very bottom am I: with only 50 stars. So by voting I’m helping everybody except myself, effectively pushing myself down further. Had I refrained from voting altogether, had I still been on par with the rest: 50. This is what I mean with a system that discourages contestants from voting. Of course, if EVERY contestant would vote for all entries except their own, it would be fair again, since everybody would share the same disadvantage. But it takes just one cunning contestant who decides not to vote to be at a major but unfair advantage. The flaw in that argument is that nobody can see any ratings while the contest is running. So they'd have no way of knowing whether it would work out to their advantage or not to refrain from voting. An interesting alternative could be to not allow participants to vote at all, and only non-contestants can vote. Then we'd have a much smaller voting pool, but one with no vested interest in the outcome. Maybe... ... only register user for "a minimum time" before the contest are allowed to vote. I actually like this, but can see some people not liking it. Determining a time frame would be key to making that work. Maybe a month before submissions start? At what point does it become unfair to allow new members to vote or deny them the option? I would be totally against being required to vote for every single entry. It's hard enough to get people to vote in the first place, and that would only make it harder. I see it as just the opposite! If you want to have a chance, you MUST vote. I can only see that as incentivising entrants to vote or be disqualified. I don't think you should be able to vote for yourself under any circumstances or set of rules. Nobody has ever had that option, nor will they ever, on this site's competitions (barring a change in management to somebody who actually thinks that is a good idea). Another idea I had was, since this is an annual contest, perhaps we could run a few "challenges" throughout the year with no prizes but which could serve as a means to test various voting schemes or image category ideas and be a fun diversion at the same time. If people like that idea, speak up! Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 02, 2014, 09:03:57 AM The flaw in that argument is that nobody can see any ratings while the contest is running. So they'd have no way of knowing whether it would work out to their advantage or not to refrain from voting. I'm very sorry, but I have to point out the flawed argument is yours. I am well aware that the ratings are invisible (in fact, not quite, but I’ll come back to that later), but it is irrelevant. In ANY case, WHATEVER the current score is at any given time, the logic that I sketched still stands. If winning is the goal, not voting is always better. Am I the only one on this forum that can see this logic? Did nobody take advantage of this brilliant loophole? Can someone else who does understand this please explain it in different terms? Torsten? -Side note: the ratings are not quite invisible. I think most people have figured out that you can sort the pictures in the gallery by ‘most rated’. Although this doesn’t add the number of stars up, it gives a pretty good idea on who’s taking the lead. Obviously it doesn’t tell you anything on the average score given. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 02, 2014, 09:28:37 AM No voting is better than voting, especially because one can not vote for theirselves. Which is because 1 star is the lowest rate one can give.
Got that, true,, and you figured out the flaw of hidden votes. And yes it is my fault not communicating those facts hoping that no one abuses it And so, using the gallery is not such a bad thing, to keep everything in the same databse, but the gallery does not provide a convenient way to manage competitions, so the gallery gets hacked by me to remove the most obvious peekholes. Knowing that, i really prepare to make some special scripts, that actually helps voting and hiding. i still find your proposal a good idea to set a default 3 star rating for every entry, this would as well circumvent fake users and group spamming because only users wich are registered when voting begins can vote and btw has anyone an idea for getting a real sponsor for the event? Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: taurus on July 02, 2014, 10:02:11 AM I think Christian summarised this quite well and I see no further need, to discuss all details of the current state of voting - It was well known and communicated, so everyone could deal with it. I can say, that I dealt with it and it worked out well for me. But I'm not sorry for that and I don't think it really was the deciding point in this compo.
And now it's over and we should look forward and see what can be improoved for future compos. I'm in common with you Julius that there is a need of improvement to minimize irregularities. There are many good suggestions mentioned below and we have one year, to figure out, which of the practical ones are the best. I think Socks suggestion to celebrate some small challenges, to try out different ways is a good starting point. I'm looking forward to battle again with you Julius - with any given rules! Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 02, 2014, 10:42:20 AM But I'm not sorry for that and I don't think it really was the deciding point in this compo. You're right that you don't have to be sorry for that, you did play by the rules and, since you're not a first time player like me, you knew how to make the most of them. But what I don't quite understand yet is that everybody seems to be scratching their heads on what a better system could be. Why not just use the average rating? It is a system found everywhere on the web, and obviously the most unbiased way to determine people's opinion. Check out how film rating sites like rottentomatoes or metacritic judge various films etc. “I haven’t seen it” isn’t interpreted as a negative rating. None of them simply adds up the numbers, not without dividing them by the number of votes. The system already seems to be in place. Just add up the stars and divide them by the number of ratings. This takes care of all the loopholes. It won't discourage you from voting, since you're just influencing averages, while leaving your own average alone. It won't matter if people mobilize their networks, because more votes doesn't automatically equate to better ratings... and there’s no way of knowing the results in between since “most rated” is meaningless. I have previously dealt with the one 5 star rating argument, and proposed a fix for that. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 02, 2014, 11:06:42 AM so, ok, i publish now a proposal that was made a year ago which discusses the voting system in great detail and i have already implemented it, but since it uses some magic number and a calculation system that is not too obvious but, look at this:
(written especially for the ff compo, by user lhogonurbs) http://www.fractalforums.com/php/proposal.pdf Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: cKleinhuis on July 02, 2014, 11:07:53 AM the average rating might work now since we have far more users now contributing to the voting ... it was a problem in the past because of the very low number of users contributing votes
Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: taurus on July 02, 2014, 11:29:18 AM Why not just use the average rating? I still think the total number of ratings is too low, to make it the ideal solution. Especially in the film section. Many users only vote for one or two, but never for all and it should be implemented by how many users the film was rated. Take a look at youtube. Never noticed, that the more views and ratings you gain, the more it is likely, that the proportional ammount of dislikes rise? And by the way: 2012 I won the contest by the same reason as this year - by more ratings. The proportional gap was even bigger (15 / 20). I was taking part the first time and clueless. And I had no promotion on FB or any other network. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 02, 2014, 11:43:41 AM I'm very sorry, but I have to point out the flawed argument is yours. I am well aware that the ratings are invisible (in fact, not quite, but I’ll come back to that later), but it is irrelevant. In ANY case, WHATEVER the current score is at any given time, the logic that I sketched still stands. If winning is the goal, not voting is always better. Am I the only one on this forum that can see this logic? Did nobody take advantage of this brilliant loophole? Can someone else who does understand this please explain it in different terms? Torsten? -Side note: the ratings are not quite invisible. I think most people have figured out that you can sort the pictures in the gallery by ‘most rated’. Although this doesn’t add the number of stars up, it gives a pretty good idea on who’s taking the lead. Obviously it doesn’t tell you anything on the average score given. You are,of course, right. That is why I should not post before I have my coffee!! :alien: I also thought we dealt with the sort by most rated issue years ago - I did not realize it was functional during the competition. So yeah... A new system is needed, but I remain unconvinced giving a blanket "3 star" rating to everybody would remove the single 5 star problem as the average of 3 + 5 is still offset by a single one star vote (ie : {3+5} / 2 = 4 - but {3+5+1} / 3 = 3 thus making sabotaging the system even easier). If influencing the vote by participants is to be avoided I see no better way than to forbid participants from voting at all. Most art contests I have seen (these are all for CGI stuff, but I count fractals as CGI!) use a Judge, or Panel of Judges to decide a winner. Voting by communities is less frequent, but usually done on a simple "vote for one image" system and adding up results. Ties are usually settled via hand to hand combat, or a judge's decision. And in those contests, you are allowed to vote for yourself! It's frowned upon, but allowed. This is going to take time, and any system will have flaws or loopholes - but this is just a very small group with no significant stakes for winning or losing, so bearing that in mind... whatever system is used simply has to be made clear from before the entry period starts. That's the only big deal thing I can see in it... I still think the total number of ratings is too low, to make it the ideal solution. ... Again, just force every entrant to vote for every entry to avoid that. Maybe even only allow entrants to vote? That way every entry gets the same number of votes and the average is more unbiased (except for trolls voting everybody the lowest possible rating to raise their own averages). Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 02, 2014, 12:23:41 PM so, ok, i publish now a proposal that was made a year ago which discusses the voting system in great detail and i have already implemented it, but since it uses some magic number and a calculation system that is not too obvious but, look at this: (written especially for the ff compo, by user lhogonurbs) http://www.fractalforums.com/php/proposal.pdf I read the paper, and it seems to me a very elegant and simple solution, and most importantly fair. Something that's twice as popular isn't awarded twice as many points as another entry of equal quality. It only gets the confidence bonus. In the example given, it seems obvious to me that the winner is the one at the current 3rd place, with the highest average, but only one voter less. The system fixes this. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: taurus on July 02, 2014, 01:36:45 PM It's an elegant solution indeed, the trick will be to finetune alpha. from a certain point the function converges pretty fast to one and it is impossible, to compensate higher averages with higher popularity.
taking the values from the example (alpha=0,9), Julius has a rating of 4,46. With my average 4,39 I couldnt outperform him - even with one billion votes. Is this the way to go? In my opinion Hal's suggestion, to name a first, a second and a third place is quite smart. There is no forced voting and it is much less time-consuming. IMHO it's worth thinking of... Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: brasnacte on July 02, 2014, 02:11:09 PM taking the values from the example (alpha=0,9), Julius has a rating of 4,46. With my average 4,39 I couldnt outperform him - even with one billion votes. Is this the way to go? In my opinion Hal's suggestion, to name a first, a second and a third place is quite smart. There is no forced voting and it is much less time-consuming. IMHO it's worth thinking of... you could easily outperform my balanced average of 4,46. With a higher valued piece. Hal's suggestion is obviously not less time consuming, because you'd still have to judge each piece in order to pick your top three! Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: taurus on July 02, 2014, 02:37:55 PM you could easily outperform my balanced average of 4,46. With a higher valued piece. I think we won't get an agreement here. We are both biased, with our very results this year. But I'm in the comfortable situation, that I won the contest. I shut up and enyoj my success... Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: LhoghoNurbs on July 02, 2014, 06:38:38 PM Hi everyone -
The proposal for voting system that considers both average score and popularity (i.e. quality and quantity) was proposed a long time ago. I almost forgot about it. Yes, the value of alpha is important -- it determines the balance between the two factors. However, we can define alpha by giving an example that is easier to comprehend. If we provide a few equilibrium states (each using different alpha) then we could ask the FF community to say which one feels most fair. Here is how an equilibrium state might look like: 10 ***** = 30 **** (i.e. 10 fivestar votes are as good as 30 fourstar votes). This is something that people without math background could determine whether it is fair or not fair. If we ask what alpha is better 0.90 or 0.92, then most of the people will just shiver in horror. As a bottom line: I do not insist on using this voting system. This is just my proposal for a system that eliminates all flaws that I am aware of. So far I cannot find a meaningful way to cheat this system. So, it is crucial that other people have a look at the proposal and make their best to find its weakness. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: LhoghoNurbs on July 02, 2014, 06:46:51 PM As for voting on your own entries, my preference would be that the selfvote is automatically set to 5 stars. This is because every persons loves his/her children most. This is natural.
I think 5-stars for own entries is a gesture of goodwill for all contest participants. And it will not impact significantly the outcome. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: LhoghoNurbs on July 02, 2014, 06:58:14 PM Sorry for writing so many posts - I almost used my annual quota (of 4 posts per year) :)
Here is another proposal, very simple to explain and to implement. Does it have any fatal flaws? 1. Every member has 1 fractal vote for each contest section. 2. Every member can vote for a contest entry either "YES" or "NO COMMENT" ("no comment" is by default) 3. The fractal vote is split equally between all "YES"-ed entries. 4. A member cannot vote to his own entry 5. This is all. Here are examples: ex.1: if I do not vote, then noone will benefit from this ex.2: if I vote for all entries, then noone will benefit, because each will take the same fragment amount of my vote ex.3: if I vote YES for 4 entries, each will get 0.25 points ex.4: if I vote YES for 10 entries, each will get 0.10 points ex.5: if I vote YES for 1 entry only, it will get my full vote (i.e. 1 point) This is like fractal coins -- if you give it to two people, you have to split it and each will get half of a coin. Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 02, 2014, 10:46:36 PM I feel the need to point out that we may well be overcomplicating this to the point of absurdity.
The simplest way is the way used by professional art contests, namely you get one vote for one image. Period. The most votes gets first place and ties are broken by a judge (or, of course, hand to hand combat - to the death!). Who gets to be the judge? In the contests I have been involved with, the judges are 99% of the time the sponsors of the contests. Simple. Straight-forward. No overblown formulas, averaging, or anything complicated. Often each person can vote for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. But often it's a single vote per person, and I like that method best. Yes, folks can wind up voting for themselves and I see nothing wrong with that despite popular opinion. After all, in any political election where votes actually mean something in life - candidates ALWAYS vote for themselves and nobody complains. It's expected they will do so and only makes news if they deviate from that standard. I may have said that already, but it was included in lists of possibilities. This method is the one I would chose if there were a poll (which I believe there should be!) or if I were Grand High Such-And-Such! Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Chillheimer on July 03, 2014, 07:32:57 PM this easiest solution might actually really be the best. I second sockrateas' proposal, also for the voting on how to vote in future votings! ;)
but voting for oneself shouldn't be possible. or we'd have sth like 25 entries with one 5star vote each. and: posted movies should be invisible until the voting period and they should be listed in randomized order to minimize the impact of the date of addition. my 1,5cents cheers everybody! and congrats to all participants. care less for votes of strangers and be proud of what you achieved! :beer: Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 03, 2014, 10:41:07 PM this easiest solution might actually really be the best. I second sockrateas' proposal, also for the voting on how to vote in future votings! ;) but voting for oneself shouldn't be possible. ... While I always make it a point to agree with anybody who agrees with me, I have to take issue with the inability to vote for oneself! Unless we all get to vote for 3 images. But in that case it should be a simple 3 image vote, each getting one "point" per vote with no double-voting for the same image. You need not vote for 3 if you don't want to, but you should not be able to place 2 or even all 3 votes for any one image. I still see no problems with self voting though. It just makes sense to me. But whatever everybody else wants... I was thinking of using the site's polling feature for voting this way. That way nobody can vote more than their share and it would be controlled by the forum software. It already exists and nobody would have to program anything. The only drawback to using forum polls is that there would be no way to stop somebody from self voting (which is fine by me O0 ). But it gives a simple One Vote, One Point system, easily set up and easily monitored. It can be set to not reveal poll results until the poll expires too, so no sneaky sorting the gallery to guess how things are doing and no questions of a single deadline for everybody! Looking forward to the vote for voting techniques! Then we shall see... (http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m278/sockratease/keyeleyedeyescope2.jpg) (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/sockratease/media/keyeleyedeyescope2.jpg.html) Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: LhoghoNurbs on July 03, 2014, 11:05:04 PM (http://i58.tinypic.com/2i1jj0h.png)
Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Sockratease on July 03, 2014, 11:17:46 PM (http://i58.tinypic.com/2i1jj0h.png) What defines "fair" - and what is the difference between "cozy" and "simple" ? Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: LhoghoNurbs on July 03, 2014, 11:40:29 PM Simple = simple algorithm and internal design, also, simple to explain and understand
Cozy = convenient for the community of voters to review hundreds of entries and vote; also the possibility for voters to express their true opinion via their votes Fair = provides ranking that most of us will consider fair, correct, acceptable; also the ranking is very hard to cheat Example of not simple: a very complex algorithm, so that only few people can understand Example of not cozy: a user has two favourites, but is forced to pick only one of then; or the user must vote for every entry; or the scoring scale is 0..100 Example of not fair: an easy way to boost the ranking of one entry utilizing flaws in the scoring/voting system Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Viking on July 04, 2014, 01:50:22 AM congrats to the winners, awsome work. :)
bit weird to see different rating numbers tho, guess it means people just voted for some pictures and didnt even watched through the rest. maybe it would be better to let people post their top 3 and count it down at the end. thank you for the contest, had a lot fun creating my entrys and that is what matters :) Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Gregoryno6 on July 12, 2014, 02:24:17 AM This was the first real chance I've had to see what other people are producing in fractal art. Very interesting.
Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: reactorman on November 05, 2014, 12:18:45 PM Hey all,
I'm not really sure how this idea will go down, but I figured I could at least try. I'm sure most have heard of the "Razzies". Well, maybe we could have the "Frazzies". A collection of the worst fractals. At least then, I may have a chance of winning something ::) LOL!!! Jim - reactorman Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: Caleidoscope on November 05, 2014, 12:40:57 PM Hi Jim,
LOL, same here so you can count me in ;) :toast: Title: Re: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results ! Post by: LhoghoNurbs on November 05, 2014, 12:51:23 PM Just imagegoogled "worst fractal", with the quotes. Found some really cute ones. |