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Author Topic: God and Art  (Read 3586 times)
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stereoman
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« on: July 05, 2014, 05:29:20 PM »

Well, birds sing, isn't music a form of art?  wink
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/0MgLXeaf3zc&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/0MgLXeaf3zc&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
IMHO decorating a nest is also a form of art
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/GPbWJPsBPdA&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/v/GPbWJPsBPdA&rel=1&fs=1&hd=1</a>
and dancing is another example.



Good point, but what the animals do is not art, since is not the result of conscious activity, instead, when a man mimics the natural sounds, like Huun Huur Tu do, this is true art.
     The same about dance, what the animals do is not their art, is the kind of art  wich is naturally intrinsic in this universe, without it, man would be unable to understand nor create art, but it belongs to the world not to the animals themselves.
      Man is the single creature able to créate, animals repeat their behaviour at infinity, beautiful as their dances are, these are always the same and canīt change, right now I hear the swallows, they circle in a bunch around my home as they do each summer day of each year and their chants sounds exactly the same, in fact I need to hear them, is part of my soundtrack, and I need that they donīt change.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 10:28:09 AM by Sockratease, Reason: Only changed the title when splitting - text is intact! » Logged
Sockratease
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2014, 05:44:08 PM »

Good point, but what the animals do is not art, since is not the result of conscious activity, instead, when a man mimics the natural sounds, like Huun Huur Tu do, this is true art.
     The same about dance, what the animals do is not their art, is the kind of art  wich is naturally intrinsic in this universe, without it, man would be unable to understand nor create art, but it belongs to the world not to the animals themselves.
      Man is the single creature able to créate, animals repeat their behaviour at infinity, beautiful as their dances are, these are always the same and canīt change, is some kind of art, but not what we understand as artistic behaviour.

I must strongly disagree!

On what grounds do you base the assertion that "what the animals do is not art, since is not the result of conscious activity"?

That sounds very much like an opinion and not any sort of thing which is even subject to empirical testing.

While I respect the opinion, I can't agree.  Animals do indeed do conscious things and have consciousness.  Have you ever owned a dog?  A cat?

They do Art all the time, and they do it for the same reasons we do - for Fun!

Just because it's different than what we do does not make it any less Art than our own human efforts.
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LMarkoya
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2014, 05:49:00 PM »

I have a Mockingbird in my back yard who not only sings close to 100 variations quite different, but as I've listened to him first hours and days and weeks, he develops new calls
I do not equate it with art, but it is very different from the statements made here.
If you take what Andy Warhol said about the topic, "Art is whatever you can get away with"
And this does not mean it has to be conscious either...which can separate human art from animal, plant or mineral art.....but I don't see how unconsciously made art has any distinction from what any other animal, plant or mineral can do. If you look at the repeated and cyclic grooves of sand left by the tides, which can be both fractal, srt nouveau like and sensuous, can it not be art? Does a photograph of it make it art? I'd belive only an appreciation of anything can raise it to the level of art
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stereoman
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 10:09:53 AM »

I must strongly disagree!

On what grounds do you base the assertion that "what the animals do is not art, since is not the result of conscious activity"?

That sounds very much like an opinion and not any sort of thing which is even subject to empirical testing.

While I respect the opinion, I can't agree.  Animals do indeed do conscious things and have consciousness.  Have you ever owned a dog?  A cat?

They do Art all the time, and they do it for the same reasons we do - for Fun!

Just because it's different than what we do does not make it any less Art than our own human efforts.

    Let me try another viewpoint,
     The social structure of ants,shows a great amount of intelligence , but no single ant shows any sign of having her own intelligence, since all their behaviour is aimed to the survival of the species, to the point where  they can sacrifice their lives.
      So , thereīs intelligence behind the ants, as there is intelligence behind any other species.
      But animals have just two brains while man has three, and this is all, animals donīt have the kind of brain able to create.
      To explain this point, man has a motor brain, an emotional, brain, and an intellectual brain, wich animals lack.
      Really Art is what is behind their behaviour, but they donīt do it, they are it, they just live, the fact that this life is part of a giant artwork, donīt  make them conscious of it.
      We all are part of a gigantic artwork, thatīs why we can appreciate and create Art, if the Universe were a bunch of rocks floating in an empty space, what sense  had Art?
       God is the main Artist, as we have been told, an the man, as a fractal of God, can also be an Artist.

      
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 10:27:50 AM by stereoman » Logged
stereoman
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 10:15:10 AM »

I have a Mockingbird in my back yard who not only sings close to 100 variations quite different, but as I've listened to him first hours and days and weeks, he develops new calls
I do not equate it with art, but it is very different from the statements made here.
If you take what Andy Warhol said about the topic, "Art is whatever you can get away with"
And this does not mean it has to be conscious either...which can separate human art from animal, plant or mineral art.....but I don't see how unconsciously made art has any distinction from what any other animal, plant or mineral can do. If you look at the repeated and cyclic grooves of sand left by the tides, which can be both fractal, srt nouveau like and sensuous, can it not be art? Does a photograph of it make it art? I'd belive only an appreciation of anything can raise it to the level of art

I agree that there is art in animal behaviour and forms, but no animal is responsible of their own shape, as is not responsible of their behaviour
this all comes with the pack.
     If Art were whatever you can get away with", pyramids and cathedrals arenīt art
     Because the Vatican and the such, are not things "you can get away with", an enormous amount of work, people, talent, Art, and money was neccesary.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 10:28:45 AM by stereoman » Logged
Sockratease
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2014, 11:52:02 AM »

   Let me try another viewpoint,
     The social structure of ants,shows a great amount of intelligence , but no single ant shows any sign of having her own intelligence, since all their behaviour is aimed to the survival of the species, to the point where  they can sacrifice their lives.
      So , thereīs intelligence behind the ants, as there is intelligence behind any other species.
      But animals have just two brains while man has three, and this is all, animals donīt have the kind of brain able to create.
      To explain this point, man has a motor brain, an emotional, brain, and an intellectual brain, wich animals lack.
      Really Art is what is behind their behaviour, but they donīt do it, they are it, they just live, the fact that this life is part of a giant artwork, donīt  make them conscious of it.
      We all are part of a gigantic artwork, thatīs why we can appreciate and create Art, if the Universe were a bunch of rocks floating in an empty space, what sense  had Art?
       God is the main Artist, as we have been told, an the man, as a fractal of God, can also be an Artist.

      

Poo-Poo and Hubba-Hubba!

To say nothing of Piffle!!

First, man has one brain, not 3.  No matter how many people's or animal's heads I split open I have never seen more than one.  Such statements require more proof than just saying so.  The only animals which appear to have multiple brains are squid - and those brains, despite being widely distributed throughout the body of the animal, are still physically connected - so many consider it still one brain.

To claim an understanding of what other creatures do and do not appreciate is quite simply impossible.  It's just your perceptions  (as my views are just my perceptions!).  So if we both perceive different things - who is to say which of us is right??  Certainly neither of us!

And what is this god thing you speak of?

Not the fairy tale guy with a beard who lives in the sky?

Next you'll be telling me the easter bunny is an Artist because he paints all those eggs so nicely!

Please - if you want to discuss the proposition that animals lack Art because we can't prove they do, then leave magical cloud dwellers which are even less subject to testing out of it as supporting evidence.  To many of us such concepts are meaningless and have no place in a rational discussion.

God stuff is fine for personal beliefs and meditations and such - but bringing it into a logical debate is just wrong.

I agree that there is art in animal behaviour and forms, but no animal is responsible of their own shape, as is not responsible of their behaviour
this all comes with the pack.
     If Art were whatever you can get away with", pyramids and cathedrals arenīt art
     Because the Vatican and the such, are not things "you can get away with", an enormous amount of work, people, talent, Art, and money was neccesary.

Again, you seem to think you have some sort of way of seeing into things much farther than ordinary people.  You cannot possibly know if an animal is responsible for their behaviour or if it all comes with the pack.

I personally see a giant termite mound as on a par with the vatican or any cathedral you can mention.  DEFINITELY Art!!

It's not like cathedrals are not buildings with no other purpose beyond Art.

I think it's best to focus solely on what defines Art for humans and leave animals, gods, and aliens out of it.  None of those are subject to any sort of rigorous analysis, so must remain in the realm of pure speculation - and as such have no place in any definition of anything beyond the metaphysical realms from which they came and to which they will be forever bound.
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stereoman
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 11:50:40 PM »

Poo-Poo and Hubba-Hubba!

To say nothing of Piffle!!

First, man has one brain, not 3.  No matter how many people's or animal's heads I split open I have never seen more than one.  Such statements require more proof than just saying so.  The only animals which appear to have multiple brains are squid - and those brains, despite being widely distributed throughout the body of the animal, are still physically connected - so many consider it still one brain.

To claim an understanding of what other creatures do and do not appreciate is quite simply impossible.  It's just your perceptions  (as my views are just my perceptions!).  So if we both perceive different things - who is to say which of us is right??  Certainly neither of us!

And what is this god thing you speak of?

Not the fairy tale guy with a beard who lives in the sky?

Next you'll be telling me the easter bunny is an Artist because he paints all those eggs so nicely!

Please - if you want to discuss the proposition that animals lack Art because we can't prove they do, then leave magical cloud dwellers which are even less subject to testing out of it as supporting evidence.  To many of us such concepts are meaningless and have no place in a rational discussion.

God stuff is fine for personal beliefs and meditations and such - but bringing it into a logical debate is just wrong.

Again, you seem to think you have some sort of way of seeing into things much farther than ordinary people.  You cannot possibly know if an animal is responsible for their behaviour or if it all comes with the pack.

I personally see a giant termite mound as on a par with the vatican or any cathedral you can mention.  DEFINITELY Art!!

It's not like cathedrals are not buildings with no other purpose beyond Art.

I think it's best to focus solely on what defines Art for humans and leave animals, gods, and aliens out of it.  None of those are subject to any sort of rigorous analysis, so must remain in the realm of pure speculation - and as such have no place in any definition of anything beyond the metaphysical realms from which they came and to which they will be forever bound.

Well, art we see in nature is Godīs inspiration, itīs true Art, but animals donīt do it, God do it.
Then, we are here, and the Creation is here, and this creation follows artistic rules, no matter what anyone wants.
So, artists are the only human beings qualified to talk about art, and I talk about true artists.
   And among those true artists, thereīs no one that thinks  God does not exists, the same about true scientists.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 12:01:24 AM »

...And among those true artists, thereīs no one that thinks  God does not exists, the same about true scientists.

I find your incessant use of the word "true" renders any discussion impossible.

Personally, I am both an Artist and a Scientist  (Artism is a hobby but I'm good enough to get 3D Work and other graphics side jobs,  and I'm a Chemist at my day job)  (So I am both an Artist and a Scientist, but apparently not truly, since I maintain that god does not exist).

And with that, I am afraid I must bow out of this sub-conversation. 
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stereoman
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 12:07:27 AM »

AS you seem to have a problem with Godīs existence, let me state this, This Universe has levels.
And this means there is above and below.
From any viewpoint, we arenīt the end of nothing, above our heads a full Universe dwells as well as under our feets, and this all is One. God.
Take a romanescu, itīs so clear ! The whole thing is the Unit, the One, God, but is built trough countless iterations of himself, wich canīt exist out of the Unit, and this Unit can exist only trough those countless iterations.
 Well, name it as you want, but this Unit, this One, exists and we live inside it, and we live below at least related to the existing above, so men of all cultures have recognized this One and named it with a lot of names.
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stereoman
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 12:09:08 AM »

I find your incessant use of the word "true" renders any discussion impossible.

Personally, I am both an Artist and a Scientist  (Artism is a hobby but I'm good enough to get 3D Work and other graphics side jobs,  and I'm a Chemist at my day job)  (So I am both an Artist and a Scientist, but apparently not truly, since I maintain that god does not exist).

And with that, I am afraid I must bow out of this sub-conversation.  

ŋCan you draw a recognizable portrait from life?   Can you build a correct perspective ?, if yes, we can talk, these are the lowest levels to start an art discussion.
By the way, I mean "true" when I talk about well recognized artists and scientists such as Leonardo, or Newton, can you name some great artist or scientist being atheist?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 12:45:12 AM by stereoman » Logged
Sockratease
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 09:49:18 AM »

ŋCan you draw a recognizable portrait from life?   Can you build a correct perspective ?, if yes, we can talk, these are the lowest levels to start an art discussion.
By the way, I mean "true" when I talk about well recognized artists and scientists such as Leonardo, or Newton, can you name some great artist or scientist being atheist?

I can do Art but am self taught and get a few terms wrong, but know what I am doing.

You want famous scientists who are atheists?

3 come immediately to mind - Neils Bohr  (atomic structure and quantum theory "God"), Richard Feynman  (Nobel Prize winning Physicist) and Stephen Hawking  (some punk kid in a wheel chair who revolutionized our understanding of time and is considered one of the greatest theoretical physicists ever).

I think Peter Higgs too, but am not certain - he predicted the now famous Higgs Boson  (ironically called "The God Particle" ).

Artists...  I don't know but if you tried to research it instead of blanketly stating that none exist, I'm positive you'd find many.  Do John Lennon and Frank Zappa count?  They are both definitely Artists in my view, and both were Atheists.

But one does not require such impressive credentials to have their opinions taken seriously  (are you a famous artist?)  (a world renowned scientist?).

Why should I, or anybody at all, have to prove anything before you will talk to them and stop making grand sweeping statements about ALL "True" Scientists and ALL "True" Artists only being those who agree with you?

That is no starting point for a discussion or debate.

It puts me off even wanting to try because I am a moderator here and should not be as rude as such statements justify! 

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LMarkoya
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 02:13:50 PM »

Very well stated...since art, as many things, is an independent variable, there is no sense in arguing over it...it is obviously different things to different people....and fortunately or unfortunately, everyone simply has to accept that. In the time of the Renaissance, you perhaps could ask such a question. But  modernity, knowledge and experimentation had left that definition in the dust a long time ago.
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stereoman
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 12:05:41 AM »

I can do Art but am self taught and get a few terms wrong, but know what I am doing.

You want famous scientists who are atheists?

3 come immediately to mind - Neils Bohr  (atomic structure and quantum theory "God"), Richard Feynman  (Nobel Prize winning Physicist) and Stephen Hawking  (some punk kid in a wheel chair who revolutionized our understanding of time and is considered one of the greatest theoretical physicists ever).

I think Peter Higgs too, but am not certain - he predicted the now famous Higgs Boson  (ironically called "The God Particle" ).

Artists...  I don't know but if you tried to research it instead of blanketly stating that none exist, I'm positive you'd find many.  Do John Lennon and Frank Zappa count?  They are both definitely Artists in my view, and both were Atheists.

But one does not require such impressive credentials to have their opinions taken seriously  (are you a famous artist?)  (a world renowned scientist?).

Why should I, or anybody at all, have to prove anything before you will talk to them and stop making grand sweeping statements about ALL "True" Scientists and ALL "True" Artists only being those who agree with you?

That is no starting point for a discussion or debate.

It puts me off even wanting to try because I am a moderator here and should not be as rude as such statements justify!  

<Quoted Image Removed>

 Well, we have different viewpoints and thatīs all. take it easy, in fact I will keep my viewpoint about your "scientists" to keep the calm.
 By the way, I didnīt mean anything about aliens, but I apologize , was my fault, by non -human activities i mean, spoiling our waters, violation of human rights, and the like.
 But if you could draw,  as an "artist"  and  as a "scientist", youīll talk really different because of the knowledge acquired in the process .
  I try to understand your viewpoint , if thereīs no God, nor Creation at all, and we live in an accidental universe, disconnected from anything, Iīm unable to uderstand whatīs the reason for art, nor what are its origins nor its function, since we all agree, nature shows art all around.
  But this viewpoint forgets the greatest idea of them all; there is Order in this Universe, and this is enough to destroy all fantaisies, because  the order is the result of laws, and laws canīt be accidental by itīs own nature.
   And this idea was the core and the nerve af all Art and Science and Religion , I canīt see what offers your viewpoint instead, Iīm very curious.
   Where do you think inspiration comes from?
   What do you think is the aim of science?
   Can exist any art nor science nor religion without laws?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 12:50:06 AM by stereoman » Logged
LMarkoya
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« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 02:15:47 AM »

I'd move to close this thread as its simply being driven by a provocateur...
its aimless, pointless, and without merit
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Sockratease
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 10:29:21 AM »

I'd move to close this thread as its simply being driven by a provocateur...
its aimless, pointless, and without merit


I don't think it warrants any moderation actions beyond splitting it off from the topic it strayed so far from, but I do appreciate your concern.

Hope nobody minds...
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