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Author Topic: Competition 2014 is over thank you for participating, these are the results !  (Read 3048 times)
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cKleinhuis
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« on: July 01, 2014, 02:14:58 AM »

thank you all for your immense participation, a new record in nearly every part, most contributions, most votings, from "just" 63 contributors, anyways, thank you all for keeping the spirit alive,
here are the first 3 of each section with links to the full results:

and this year taurus is again taking the first place in 2 sections! congratulations! and congratulations to user pulsar for making it first place in the resemblance section, you have well earned your coffee cups with your images, please contact me in private mail to provide your adresses (yes, taurus as well wink so i dont have to search ooooold mails ) congrats to the winners and congrats to everyone who contributed making this another great event and thank you to all you voters with more than 4000 votes we did a new record this year!


"comment"
i am so pleased about the 7th compo in a row, and i hope to let it grow even more next year, feel free to provide ideas for next years "free" competition, in general i was happy about many contributions to that resemblance compo but i think you (we) could have done better, was it because the topic was too wide spread !? shall i use a more restricted third section next year, like last years axolotl ? i am just saying, because not much effort was put into really resembling something, not any tweak of the axolotl, just a few forest scenes, please help us providing the best competition layout that produces most interesting outcome, anyways the short film section seemed to have worked very well, some immense sweet productions where submitted, and the classic still frame produced as well nice results, so hope you all join in next year again, thank you all for contribution

"2nd comment about counting system" as we have this year the situation that people with lower average voting won, and to avoid any discussion: it is the gneral user interaction that counts, so average voting is not relevant for the ranking, because one single vote of 5 stars could outnumber an entry with hundrets of five star votings and just a single 4 star voting would place it below the single 5 star voting, this is like it is. although i have a voting system in my pocket for over a year i had no time to analyse it and present it to you, perhaps i am discussing it over the course of the year, but for this year you have to live with that, participating is everything - never forget that, and again thank you to all contributors (voters and posters!)

 A Beer Cup

Still Frame

indexthumbfilenamememberNametitleratingtotalratingsaverageRatingviews
1taurus66temple town - seaside entrance179414,3659345
2Zakar"Cyclossa"165394,2308248
3Zakar"Hive Mind"163384,2895243

Link to full results for "still frame":
http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=19579.0

Short Film
indexthumbfilenamememberNametitleratingtotalratingsaverageRatingviews
1taurus66waterbreathing145334,3939290
2brasnacteDream/Iterate128274,7407280
3MatzeREarth - Fire - Water - Wind - - - Life102234,4348193
4pulsar69Trailers98234,2609180

Link to full results for "short film"
http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=19580.0

Resemblance
indexthumbfilenamememberNametitleratingtotalratingsaverageRatingviews
1pulsar69Incoming lifeform113264,3462272
2JoeFRAQOne Lonely Spongetree105273,8889182
3pulsar69Mandel spider97224,4091172

Link to full results for "resemblance"
http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?topic=19581.0
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 01:22:21 PM by cKleinhuis » Logged

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brasnacte
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2014, 10:46:19 AM »

My sincere and heartfelt congratulations to all the winners.
I am very proud to be part of a great community of Fractal enthusiasts that continue to inspire me.

Even though the rules are clearly stated and they are repeated here as a commentary note, I must say I have mixed feelings about the voting system. Obviously some of this comes from the frustration that I didnít finish first (second is still great), but these feelings are not from today, and existed long before the votes were counted.
My main problem here is that for a reason which I donít understand, the system seems to be designed to award the person with the largest network, instead of judging the piece on its intrinsic merit. The moderator defends this system with an example: a hypothetical situation where a single 5 star vote would outperform a hundred 5 star votes plus a 4 star vote. That this is an unwanted situation is obvious, but is seems very simple to overcome this problem by imposing a threshold.

Hypothetically, a million 1 star votes would outweigh any other entry in the forum, while it is unlikely that those million people giving it 1 star (the lowest possible rating) meant to give it credit. However in the current system this abysmal entry would win by a landslide.

And this is where things really break down. If youíre merely counting stars, the lowest possible rating isnít 1 star, but 0 stars, which are awarded to anything youíre not voting for. So by not voting for something youíre basically saying itís even worse than one a pitiful entry you voted 1 star. Paradoxically, anybody with the absolute intent to win is discouraged to vote for anything in his or her own section at all, since you canít vote for yourself. Let me explain. Even if you award every other entry just one star, youíre still helping the others one star up, while leaving yourself at 0. Not voting is the best strategy. What?
In statistics, the difference between a sample group of 5 or 20 can be huge, but the difference between 50 and 200 much less, since the more data you gather, the more it trends towards the average. If youíre only adding up, itís the size of the sample group that counts, which goes up linear, and never evens out. In my unsatisfying example this explains the significant difference between average stars (88% vs. 95%) and amount of stars (145 vs. 128)

I havenít used these tactics myself. I have voted for each entry in the sections Resemblance and Short Film (where I participated) and not skipped a single entry. I didn't start voting on the Still Frame section, because I knew it would only be fair to vote for EACH one, and I didn't have the time. Itís fairer not to vote then to vote for only some.
It might be blatantly obvious that I am upset to have to yield first place to Taurus, which is by no means undeserved (I thought ĎWaterbreathingí was phenomenal and awarded it the appropriate  5 stars), but frustrating because the average rating of my ďDream/IterateĒ is significantly higher, and because I think the voting system is fundamentally flawed.
Likewise, the other entries that were awarded a higher average rating but a (statistically insignificant) lower sample size should rise to the top.

The moderator himself seems to be well aware of these issues and proposes to introduce a new system next year. My only question is why he hasnít yet.
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Sockratease
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 11:18:06 AM »

My sincere and heartfelt congratulations to all the winners.
I am very proud to be part of a great community of Fractal enthusiasts that continue to inspire me.

Even though the rules are clearly stated and they are repeated here as a commentary note, I must say I have mixed feelings about the voting system. Obviously some of this comes from the frustration that I didnít finish first (second is still great), but these feelings are not from today, and existed long before the votes were counted.
My main problem here is that for a reason which I donít understand, the system seems to be designed to award the person with the largest network, instead of judging the piece on its intrinsic merit. The moderator defends this system with an example: a hypothetical situation where a single 5 star vote would outperform a hundred 5 star votes plus a 4 star vote. That this is an unwanted situation is obvious, but is seems very simple to overcome this problem by imposing a threshold.

Hypothetically, a million 1 star votes would outweigh any other entry in the forum, while it is unlikely that those million people giving it 1 star (the lowest possible rating) meant to give it credit. However in the current system this abysmal entry would win by a landslide.

And this is where things really break down. If youíre merely counting stars, the lowest possible rating isnít 1 star, but 0 stars, which are awarded to anything youíre not voting for. So by not voting for something youíre basically saying itís even worse than one a pitiful entry you voted 1 star. Paradoxically, anybody with the absolute intent to win is discouraged to vote for anything in his or her own section at all, since you canít vote for yourself. Let me explain. Even if you award every other entry just one star, youíre still helping the others one star up, while leaving yourself at 0. Not voting is the best strategy. What?
In statistics, the difference between a sample group of 5 or 20 can be huge, but the difference between 50 and 200 much less, since the more data you gather, the more it trends towards the average. If youíre only adding up, itís the size of the sample group that counts, which goes up linear, and never evens out. In my unsatisfying example this explains the significant difference between average stars (88% vs. 95%) and amount of stars (145 vs. 128)

I havenít used these tactics myself. I have voted for each entry in the sections Resemblance and Short Film (where I participated) and not skipped a single entry. I didn't start voting on the Still Frame section, because I knew it would only be fair to vote for EACH one, and I didn't have the time. Itís fairer not to vote then to vote for only some.
It might be blatantly obvious that I am upset to have to yield first place to Taurus, which is by no means undeserved (I thought ĎWaterbreathingí was phenomenal and awarded it the appropriate  5 stars), but frustrating because the average rating of my ďDream/IterateĒ is significantly higher, and because I think the voting system is fundamentally flawed.
Likewise, the other entries that were awarded a higher average rating but a (statistically insignificant) lower sample size should rise to the top.

The moderator himself seems to be well aware of these issues and proposes to introduce a new system next year. My only question is why he hasnít yet.


Sadly, All voting systems are fundamentally flawed.

Some moreso than others, but all can be exploited or give unsatisfactory results  (just look at any election in America for proof!).

In fact, in his Philosophical and Political Blockbuster Hit "The Republic" - Plato himself decries Democracy as the worst possible form of Government, akin to Mob Rule.  He says even a Dictatorship is better.

One idea I had was to make voting for every entry Mandatory for all entrants.  This wont remove problems like those you mention, but it can help.

Sadly, there will never be a system everybody is happy with, so we just do as you did - accept it for what it is and if we have better ideas, we voice them.

As for your point about "judging the piece on its intrinsic merit" - surely you realize that's impossible as everybody will have a different point of view on that.  That's why many such contests have a Judge or group of Judges who do just that and one's popularity can never effect results.  The problem with that is nobody gets to vote for anything or participate in the selection process at all.

Maybe Anonymous entries could alleviate that?

There are many things to consider, but ultimately I believe since no objective system is possible - that any system is as good as any other as long as it's clearly explained and understood.

Maybe we should have a vote on what voting process to use next year?   clown
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2014, 11:41:33 AM »

either use no voting system at all or be absolutely sure what the "new" system does, the new system is going to introduce a magical number that works with an exponent to weight the number of votes more over the total count, BUT as you told that bigger networks are rewarded, i am really not sure if it does not even overcomplicate it, i did not introduce it just because the discussion about this magic number i am really really really afraid of on one hand it has to be introduced and on the next hand is has to be discussed which value it should become

i am preparing a comparison, with old, classic and new system taking into account all votes on compos we held, so this is going to be a tedious work and i do not really beliefe if it really works, lol

so what would your direct modification to a voting system like we have here ?! at least it is community based and not based on a stupid jury

several possibilities occur, perhaps demand from every contestant to vote, and JUST the contestants perhaps ?!
i dunno, lets just sit back and enjoy the immense work that has been published throughout the contest

and perhaps taurus is even going to give the first price to you, because he basically has already a cup with exact that object wink
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brasnacte
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 11:46:33 AM »

Sadly, All voting systems are fundamentally flawed.


Although I respect your position in defending the current system I think it is lazy to do so by simply stating that all the alternatives are also bad. They may well be, but theyíre definitely not equally bad. The democratic system has improved much since Platoís time.

To propose a couple of simple ways to make the voting more balanced:

A.   Simply count averages, and impose a threshold of 10 or 20 votes minimal.

B.   Each forum member is automatically assigned 3 stars to all entries, and so can change this by downvoting to 1 or 2, or upvoting to 4 or 5.

Both these systems have the merit that as a contestant it is valid to attract extra attention, but only helps if those extra voters raise the average. Ė as opposed to now, where it doesnít matter what those extra voters give you.
They also donít discourage any calculating contestant to vote for their own section. Iím sure some can come up with a lot of better ideas.
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 11:55:51 AM »

nice ideas, this might really work, i personally dont like the 5 star voting system either, it is a flaw but this is basically due to the lazynes of introducing something own, which would
induce a rewrite of the gallery voting system, or even creating a new voting system totally aside of the gallery, and i could do that - yes - it means a little work and set up but i am thinking about making a special part for the voting system, where all entries are shown on a single page ( or at least far more than just one ) to make it easier for people to vote, it would be nice to have a high quality design for the compo and another section, i might really do that

what voting system i personally prefer you ask ? in my eye a single thumb up / thumb down would create the best average result, and would relieve the voters from thinking too much about how to exactly vote, so either like it, hate it, or have no meaning on it

i like the 3 star system for every user, this would basically come down to placing a single sql query on the database as soon as the competition starts, and allowing people to change their ratings, i like that but at the end we need to come down to exactly one voting system and as i said i promise to discuss that and place a voting about the voting system smiley
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 11:59:15 AM »

Although I respect your position in defending the current system I think it is lazy to do so by simply stating that all the alternatives are also bad. They may well be, but theyíre definitely not equally bad. The democratic system has improved much since Platoís time.

I wasn't defending the current system, I was disparaging all systems!

They also donít discourage any calculating contestant to vote for their own section. Iím sure some can come up with a lot of better ideas.


Actually, I don't think the gallery allows anybody to vote for their own images.  Not sure if that's what you meant, but at least self-voting is already covered.

I hope we can find a system which everybody likes.  Sadly, we all know that will never happen.

Personally, I like the idea of anonymous entries to minimize the "popularity effect" and maybe enforce a vote for everybody or nobody rule to avoid any need to average out the votes  (since every entry should have the same number of votes that way).
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 12:11:09 PM »

First of all, I'd like to thank all participants for the hard competition. and many thanks to all, who voted for my entry!


My main problem here is that for a reason which I donít understand, the system seems to be designed to award the person with the largest network, instead of judging the piece on its intrinsic merit.


Dear Julius,
I honestly share your scepticism about the fairness of the voting system and I also think, that I could only outperform your submission, because I mobilised some channels on facebook. Technically, I can't get even close to your fantastic story, you told in your video.
But also honestly, I don't really feel bad about this. The term "largest network" in this case sounds ridicoulous. We had 27 and 33 votes - nothing about this is large at all.
We are talking about a very special kind of animation movie - not about film making in general. I'm working almost completely with open source software on a single machine, no render-farm, no after effects and nevertheless I had a chance, because it is also about uniqueness and creativity in fractal-generation and animation and theese are my advantages.
We are a fist full of freaks doing strange stuff. Nothing serious about it.
But I share your whish, to find a more equal rating system. maybe the mathematicians here can help to find a statistically equal solution...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 12:19:42 PM by taurus » Logged

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brasnacte
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2014, 12:18:18 PM »

Actually, I don't think the gallery allows anybody to vote for their own images.  Not sure if that's what you meant, but at least self-voting is already covered.


No I donít think you get my point. My point is this:

Precisely because youíre not allowed voting for yourself youíre discouraged to vote altogether.

To illustrate this, letís assume at one point in the voting process everybody has the same amount of total stars (rating) 50.

Now letís assume Iím a contestant, and I havenít voted yet. I start voting for everybody, except myself because I canít. After my lengthy voting session, some will have 55, some 54, etc. and some even 51 stars. (the one I only awarded a single star) But at the very bottom am I: with only 50 stars. So by voting Iím helping everybody except myself, effectively pushing myself down further.
Had I refrained from voting altogether, had I still been on par with the rest: 50.

This is what I mean with a system that discourages contestants from voting. Of course, if EVERY contestant would vote for all entries except their own, it would be fair again, since everybody would share the same disadvantage.  But it takes just one cunning contestant who decides not to vote to be at a major but unfair advantage.


I hope I illustrated this point well.
Another closely related point and then Iíll shut up about it:
Imagine a contestant posting on Facebook and moving his friends to vote for his entry. Letís assume that this crowd is a loyal one, and theyíre all awarding the highest rating to their beloved friend while ignoring the rest. This is perfectly legitimate, and it probably happens all the time in contests around the globe.

Now letís assume that all these friends not only assign their friend the 5 stars, but also award each other contestant the lowest rating of one star. This would be a questionable practice, and most of us would refrain from doing that or even condemn it.

But in essence this is what happens, even though the friends are oblivious to it. By voting for your friend while ignoring the rest you are awarding them 0 stars each, plummeting their position, only repairable by getting their friends and family, etc.
 It becomes thus a popularity contest.
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 12:19:07 PM »

Totally agree for a new voting system.

-Anonymous entry could be a good thing.
-A 3 star to everyone or the general idea of a vote for everybody or nobody is absolutely necessary IMHO.
-Perhaps 5 star is not enough selective, i would rather like a 10 stars/points system.
-only register user for "a minimum time" before the contest are allowed to vote.

And sure there is no perfect system !

And most important thanx for all your work and to manage this contest for the fractal communauty !

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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2014, 12:22:31 PM »

it is going to change, we have some good ideas here, perhaps we really find the time to create a nice layout, and an overview page, so that if you vote, you need to vote for EVERY entry, for this i am going to create a special page with an overview of what one has voted for so that it helps fulfilling the - vote for everything - part, this sounds like a good method, doesnt it ?
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2014, 12:27:55 PM »


Precisely because youíre not allowed voting for yourself youíre discouraged to vote altogether.


that's a good point, but who will hinder someone to only vote for his own entry?

anonymous voting might make it a bit more equal, but I can still advertise my own work in other social media, so when I'm clever the people will know who did the work
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brasnacte
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2014, 01:17:53 PM »

First of all, I'd like to thank all participants for the hard competition. and many thanks to all, who voted for my entry!

Dear Julius,
I honestly share your scepticism about the fairness of the voting system and I also think, that I could only outperform your submission, because I mobilised some channels on facebook. Technically, I can't get even close to your fantastic story, you told in your video.
But also honestly, I don't really feel bad about this. The term "largest network" in this case sounds ridicoulous. We had 27 and 33 votes - nothing about this is large at all.
We are talking about a very special kind of animation movie - not about film making in general. I'm working almost completely with open source software on a single machine, no render-farm, no after effects and nevertheless I had a chance, because it is also about uniqueness and creativity in fractal-generation and animation and theese are my advantages.
We are a fist full of freaks doing strange stuff. Nothing serious about it.
But I share your whish, to find a more equal rating system. maybe the mathematicians here can help to find a statistically equal solution...

Dear Torsten,
Congrats again, and I by no means feel resentful by being beaten by your wonderful piece, which I myself though was mesmerizing indeed. Neither do I think that itís wrong to mobilize your network to help you with votes. Thereís nothing large indeed between the difference between 27 and 33, at least statistically. In the linear counting system the difference is huge: anywhere between 6 and 30 points.
I agree with your point that itís nice that somebody with less access to resources such as cpu power or expensive software has equal opportunity. Again, completely deserved in this case.

that's a good point, but who will hinder someone to only vote for his own entry?

When counting averages this is no issue at all, since only voting for yourself, (or voting for everybody else but yourself) doesnít skew the numbers that much. Another way to put it, in an average system voting can be both down and up. In the current system you can ONLY vote up.
To be clear: Iím not proposing that voting for yourself should be allowed, since this would indeed be prone to abuse.

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haltenny
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2014, 03:10:40 PM »

Congratulations to all the winners! I would be totally against being required to vote for every single entry. It's hard enough to get people to vote in the first place, and that would only make it harder. I would suggest requiring all entrants to cast a vote for first, second and third place in whatever category they enter. First place vote gets 5 points, second place gets 3 and third place gets 1 point. Total points tally wins. If you limit the voting to just people that enter a category, that will more or less eliminate outside influence such as social networks.

I don't think you should be able to vote for yourself under any circumstances or set of rules. I'm sure Christian had the voting system in place before the competition and anyone could have asked about it. Complaining about it after the fact is just... sour grapes in my opinion.
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2014, 11:55:09 PM »

... I mobilised some channels on facebook...


Here is a good reason that many art contests demand only new entries not previously shown elsewhere, and that entries not be posted anywhere else until the contest is over.  This, combined with anonymous entries, would curtail the bulk of that effect.  Sure, a direct link to the entry could be posted to circumvent that rule - but we could make that disallowed too, and disqualify any participant who does so.  Not that we'd actively police that - I avoid facebook like the plague that I perceive it to be - but we could act if such activity is reported.

Of course, this idea doesn't work with videos - they are all hosted externally  sad



Now letís assume Iím a contestant, and I havenít voted yet. I start voting for everybody, except myself because I canít. After my lengthy voting session, some will have 55, some 54, etc. and some even 51 stars. (the one I only awarded a single star) But at the very bottom am I: with only 50 stars. So by voting Iím helping everybody except myself, effectively pushing myself down further.
Had I refrained from voting altogether, had I still been on par with the rest: 50.

This is what I mean with a system that discourages contestants from voting. Of course, if EVERY contestant would vote for all entries except their own, it would be fair again, since everybody would share the same disadvantage.  But it takes just one cunning contestant who decides not to vote to be at a major but unfair advantage.

The flaw in that argument is that nobody can see any ratings while the contest is running.  So they'd have no way of knowing whether it would work out to their advantage or not to refrain from voting.

An interesting alternative could be to not allow participants to vote at all, and only non-contestants can vote.  Then we'd have a much smaller voting pool, but one with no vested interest in the outcome.

Maybe...

... only register user for "a minimum time" before the contest are allowed to vote.


I actually like this, but can see some people not liking it.  Determining a time frame would be key to making that work.  Maybe a month before submissions start?  At what point does it become unfair to allow new members to vote or deny them the option?

I would be totally against being required to vote for every single entry. It's hard enough to get people to vote in the first place, and that would only make it harder.

I see it as just the opposite!  If you want to have a chance, you MUST vote.  I can only see that as incentivising entrants to vote or be disqualified.


I don't think you should be able to vote for yourself under any circumstances or set of rules.

Nobody has ever had that option, nor will they ever, on this site's competitions  (barring a change in management to somebody who actually thinks that is a good idea).


Another idea I had was, since this is an annual contest, perhaps we could run a few "challenges" throughout the year with no prizes but which could serve as a means to test various voting schemes or image category ideas and be a fun diversion at the same time.  If people like that idea, speak up!
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