Logo by polterbyte
News: FractalForums.com is a forum for Fractal related discussion - Share your own fractal images and fractal movies with us. 
Discuss fractal theory, IFS, Mandelbrot sets and any forms of fractal art!  Some of our users are teachers and professors -
some are high school students - some come along just for the ride - but all share an enthusiasm for all things Fractal related.
 
*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register. November 23, 2008, 02:39:41 PM


Login with username, password and session length



Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: True 3D mandlebrot type fractal  (Read 1149 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
twinbee
Fractal Conqueror
*******
Posts: 73


View Profile WWW
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2007, 12:02:17 AM »

I think we may have something...



Sorry about the low resolution - even this took around 30 hours to render!! Formula and full story coming when I tidy up the code...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 12:20:37 AM by twinbee » Logged
Duncan C
Fractal Lover
**
Posts: 178


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2007, 01:29:18 AM »

Hi all!
I'm relatively new to fractals, but I have searched for hours to find a true 3D mandlebrot type fractal, all in vain. I don't want the raised mountain type of mandlebrot, and I don't want any true (but trivially simple) ones such as the Menger sponge. I instead want a true 3D equivalent of the mandlebrot (or near enough).

The closest I got was the Quasi-fuchsian sphere fractal:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/3lcO9zRCv-4&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/3lcO9zRCv-4&rel=1</a>

However, that is still mostly self-similar. I want the amazing variety that can be found in the mandlebrot. Anything out there?


Could you take the 4D Mandelbrot/Julia set equation:

(real and imaginary Z and real and imaginary C values) and hold one of the 4 values constant, while running the other 3 thorough a cubic grid of values? I would think this would generate very interesting 3D fractals. It would be a 3D slice through the 4D Mandelbrot/Jullia equation, where normal Mandelbrot and Julia sets are 2D slices.



Duncan
Logged
David Makin
Global Moderator
Strange Attractor
*****
Posts: 223


View Profile WWW
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2007, 02:46:54 AM »


Could you take the 4D Mandelbrot/Julia set equation:

(real and imaginary Z and real and imaginary C values) and hold one of the 4 values constant, while running the other 3 thorough a cubic grid of values? I would think this would generate very interesting 3D fractals. It would be a 3D slice through the 4D Mandelbrot/Jullia equation, where normal Mandelbrot and Julia sets are 2D slices.

Duncan

2D renders of 3D slices from the 4 dimensional "Julibrot" space are possible from Fractint and some formulas in Ultrafractal but they aren't exactly what is being sought Smiley

Here's one view of a Julibrot:

http://makinmagic.deviantart.com/art/Classic-3D-Julibrot-43168532
Logged

The meaning and purpose of life is to give life purpose and meaning.

http://www.fractalgallery.co.uk/
"fractaldave" on Yahoo UK Launchcast
twinbee
Fractal Conqueror
*******
Posts: 73


View Profile WWW
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2007, 10:39:46 AM »

Looks like it's not just us lot that have searched for the 3D Mandelbulb. I found some interesting threads in Google Groups from quite a few who seemed to wonder if such an object could exist. Notable posts include Erick's info about using arbitrary powers of n (instead of the usual n^2 in the main formula) to represent the third dimension. Also Laszlo's rumour indicates that the thing exists, and actually has a name (oops he's lost the reference - there's a surprise!). Finally, Lloyd Mitchell in this thread claims that "3d slices of the 4D Mandelbrot set (let the k part of c = 0) do reveal spheres instead of circular disks.", and precedes that with formulae which maybe someone here can follow better than I can. Of course, I'm am very skeptical he's actually found anything.

I'll come clean about the image I posted on December 04. It's not from any maths at all - I drew it in an art program...... :-} Yeah I know, seemed a fun joke at the time, though I'd be a lot more excited if I really found it. If you look carefully, you should be able to notice some discrepancies which indicate it's not the genuine article heh.

I still think the 3D version of the Mandelbrot would look the best and most fascinating fractal ever (especially if we could make the surface multi-colored - not sure how easy that is, since the surface of the ordinary 2D Mandelbrot is always only a single colour). To find the Mandelbulb, I've tried everything from cylindrical coords to spherical-distance based rotations (instead of angle-based). Unfortunately, nothing's got closer than the one I posted earlier which Lycium rendered.

Finally, one glimmer of hope that such a thing may exist after all. I quote from this excellent page:

"Also Mandelbrot curves have been discovered in cross-sections of magnetic field borders, implying there is a 3-D mandelbrot equivalent that is closely tied to electromagnetism and therefore a deep structural and fundamental aspect of life, and physical space/time."
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 12:46:04 PM by twinbee » Logged
lkmitch
Fractal Navigator
*****
Posts: 37



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2007, 05:34:33 AM »

actually has a name (oops he's lost the reference - there's a surprise!). Finally, Lloyd Mitchell in this thread claims that "3d slices of the 4D Mandelbrot set (let the k part of c = 0) do reveal spheres instead of circular disks.", and precedes that with formulae which maybe someone here can follow better than I can. Of course, I'm am very skeptical he's actually found anything.

Wow--it's not often that something I wrote 15 years ago comes back to life!  :-)

I think that the search for a 3D Mandelbrot analog depends on a suitable definition of a 3D number system.  As has probably been pointed out, the more useful extensions of the real numbers have 2^n components, so there isn't a standard 3D system.  Thus, you're free to define your own and see how it works with the Mandelbrot set.

(Lloyd) Kerry Mitchell
Logged
glbn
Fractal Newbie
*
Posts: 1


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2008, 02:59:53 PM »

Hi,

Here's a little program I did long time ago to explore the quaternions fractals:

http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~gilles/fractal.zip

I got some interesting results:


I can't remember exactly which multiplication I used, but it wasn't the quaternion one.

Gilles
Logged
lycium
Fractal Bachius
*
Posts: 515



View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2008, 03:32:38 AM »

interesting screenshot, unfortunately the program crashes at startup :/

edit: it was crashing because of the included opengl dlls, deleted them and it works. unfortunately it still crashes when making high resolution meshes, but i was able to render these with resolution 960:





« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 04:16:55 AM by lycium » Logged

twinbee
Fractal Conqueror
*******
Posts: 73


View Profile WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2008, 02:31:52 PM »

Quote
Wow--it's not often that something I wrote 15 years ago comes back to life!  :-)

Lol Smiley I take it what you said back then didn't produce what we're looking for (a Mandelbulb with bulbs on all axis) ?

Hey glbn, that looks pretty cool! Obviously, it's not quite what we're after, but it looks quite nice regardless and although the chance is small, there are certainly areas which could hold more and more detail as you zoom in.

Nice renders Lycium!

As for me, I've almost given up (but then I always say that don't I? Wink). I'm exploring one last idea involving toroidal coords, which could be interesting.
Logged
Karl131058
FractAlien
***
Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2008, 04:19:12 PM »

Oh, my deeply sleeping thread!
I revive Thee from the dead...  angel1


Ok, seriously, after staying away from FractalForums for a while because of RealLife(TM), I came back and (obviously) found this thread. I had a little exchange of mails with twinbee about the formula involved and he has asked me to post the results here. So, here it comes:


twinbee defined (a "few" posts back)

double r    = sqrt(x*x + y*y + z*z );   
double yang = atan2(sqrt(x*x + y*y) , z  ) // that would be theta in std polar coordinates
double zang = atan2(y , x);                      // that would be phi  in std polar coordinates

so I would suppose he has implicitly

x = r*sin(yang)*cos(zang)
y = r*sin(yang)*sin(zang)
z = r*cos(yang)

and I would have expected (doubling the angles!)

newx = (r*r) * sin(yang*2)*cos(zang*2)
newy = (r*r) * sin(yang*2)*sin(zang*2)
newz = (r*r) * cos(yang*2)

but he defines

newx = (r*r) * sin( yang*2 + 0.5*pi ) * cos(zang*2 +pi);
newy = (r*r) * sin( yang*2 + 0.5*pi ) * sin(zang*2 +pi);
newz = (r*r) * cos( yang*2 + 0.5*pi );

which can be simplified by taking into account the symmetries of sin() and cos() to

newx = - (r*r) * cos(yang*2) * cos(zang*2)
newy = - (r*r) * cos(yang*2) * sin(zang*2)
newz = - (r*r) * sin(yang*2)

which is not exactly equal to doubling the angles. Smiley
... but it leads to interesting pictures.
One DOES NOT need atan2(), sin() and cos() to implement these formulae,
because they can be simplified a lot by using the following identities for any
angle a :
cos(a)*cos(a)+sin(a)*sin(a)=1  (well known, I suppose)
cos(2*a) = cos(a)*cos(a)-sin(a)*sin(a)   (less well known, it seems Smiley)
sin(2*a) = 2*cos(a)*sin(a)

I'll spare you the details, but you end on:

newx = ( x*x + y*y - z*z )*( x*x - y*y) / ( x*x + y*y )
newy = 2 * ( x*x + y*y - z*z )*x*y / ( x*x + y*y )
newz = - 2 * z * sqrt( x*x + y*y )

no trigonometric functions at all, just additions, multiplications, divisions and a squareroot.
There is NO pole on the z-axis, BUT there might be numerical problems because of the
denominator, solvable e.g. by taking

if( abs(y) < really_small_value )
newx = x*x-z*z
newy = 0
newz = -2*z*sqrt(x*x)
else (view above)

(end of simplification)

Interesting side effect: when I first read about "doubling both angles" I wanted
to try that for myself. When doing geometry instead of math, I prefer measuring
the angle theta not against the z-axis, but against the x-y-plane, so in that case

phi = atan2( y, x ) // just like before
theta = atan2( z, sqrt(x*x + y*y) ) // exchange of arguments, angle is positive above, negative below x-y-Plane

then
x = r*cos(theta)*cos(phi)
y = r*cos(theta)*sin(phi)
z = r*sin(theta)

and simply doubling the angles

newx = r*r*cos(2*theta)*cos(2*phi)
newy = r*r*cos(2*theta)*sin(2*phi)
newz = r*r*sin(2*theta)

simplifying this analogous to above gives

newx = ( x*x + y*y - z*z )*( x*x - y*y) / ( x*x + y*y )
newy = 2 * ( x*x + y*y - z*z )*x*y / ( x*x + y*y )
newz = 2 * z * sqrt( x*x + y*y )

IDENTICAL to twinbee's stuff except for the sign in z !

Since I'm sitting at an OLD Mac (350MHz) and try to use POV-Ray to produce pictures I can't show any yet; that takes TIME! But the first little "thumbnails" I produced show that this change of sign dramatically changes the resulting set!

Forgive my ranting - I hope somebody might find these "simplifications" useful - twinbee thought so, at least!

Happy iterating...
Karl
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  

 
Jump to:  


Related Topics
Subject Started by Replies Views Last post
Fractal Video, Fractal Applet Web Site Meet & Greet ianc10 1 256 Last post October 02, 2006, 09:19:59 PM
by heneganj
y23 of www.y23.com/fractal says hello! Meet & Greet y23 4 235 Last post October 07, 2006, 04:13:21 PM
by GFWorld
Fractal Research and Fractal Products New Theories & Research julesruis 0 219 Last post October 19, 2006, 06:47:33 PM
by julesruis
New old fractal Images Showcase (Rate My Fractal) Unhooked 5 228 Last post December 10, 2006, 07:06:00 PM
by GFWorld
Fractal artists: what do you want in a fractal program? General Discussion dentaku2 5 275 Last post February 04, 2007, 01:05:53 PM
by Sockratease

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.7 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS! Dilber MC Theme by HarzeM
Page created in 2.231 seconds with 27 queries. (Pretty URLs adds 0.152s, 2q)